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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ed Markey to unveil 'Green New Deal' bill

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  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Her answers to Anderson Cooper on "how are you going to pay for it" were epically stupid.
    It’s easy to sneer. It’s only a resolution at this stage and a lot of work needs to be done to iron out the problems and to deal with funding it. This is why AOC has proposed creating a House select committee to develop the Green New Deal. But it’s a start and it’s necessary, given the urgency of dealing with global warming, and it’s more than anything else Congress has done up until now.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      No.

      The Green New Deal is currently a proposed Resolution. A Resolution is different to a Bill - passing it doesn't make it a law, and it doesn't need Senate or Presidential sign-off. A Resolution is a formal declaration, aka a public memo from the House to itself. It has been submitted to the House now, so it will go through a debate and discussion and amendment period, and then the House will (probably) vote on the final version of it. If it passes, it will effectively be a formal declaration by Democrats (assuming Republicans don't vote for it) of what their policy is, and at that point the House Climate Change Committee will be handed the passed text of the Resolution, and instructed to begin drafting legislation and interviewing experts, with the goal of producing one or more Bills that implement the goals of the Resolution which can then be submitted back to the House for debate, amending, and voting, and if and when those pass the House, Senate, and get Presidential sign-off they will become law.

      Hence, as I said...
      Interesting then that Congress.Gov (the very source you linked to) repeatedly refers to this resolution as a bill.

      They have a link stating "More on this bill"

      Another reference to "Related Bills"

      And a notation stating that "There is one version of the bill" referring to it.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • As an aside since Chakrabarti's name has come up in this thread:



        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Interesting then that Congress.Gov (the very source you linked to) repeatedly refers to this resolution as a bill.

          They have a link stating "More on this bill"

          Another reference to "Related Bills"

          And a notation stating that "There is one version of the bill" referring to it.
          But he knows more than congress, silly...
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            I think you awkwardly blur a complex reality here. The government has huge scope for controlling the speed at which this happens.

            For example, the government here is busily installing charging stations across my country.

            In the US, the state of California has long had huge influence over the car manufacturing industry due to setting emissions standards. Its choices have affected what models car manufacturers release and what technologies they pursued.

            Likewise, government policy is hugely influential in affecting the relative cost of electricity and gas. A choice to install more power stations can lower electricity prices. A choice to subsidize gas less can raise gas prices. This in turn affects the decision of individuals as to whether they purchase an electric car, a hybrid, or a gas car.

            So I think your statement that it will happen "naturally" is quite wrong. Governments were instrumental in pouring massive amounts of money into R&D for green technologies. They set emissions standards which affect the rate at which the automotive industry chooses to transition vehicle production to greener vehicles. They control the relative price of gas and electricity. They build (or don't) charging stations for electric vehicles. So none of this happened "naturally" - it has been planned, controlled, and shepherded by governments from start to finish, and they have massive, massive control over the rate at which the transition continues to occur.

            I agree that it sounds like a great idea in theory. The simple problem is that it just doesn't generate very much power and isn't cost-effective compared to other methods.

            Indeed, I think 50 years from now, fusion could become a major power source. Unfortunately that isn't fast enough to deal with current climate issues. I could write you a rant on how governments have been underfunding fusion research for decades now, and how it is possible we could have invented viable fusion power by now if they had, but that is beside the point. Governments should be putting more money into fusion R&D, but they haven't, and at this stage where we need rapid action to reduce greenhouse emissions, transitioning to fusion is simply not an option.

            You say this as if we can't control the rate at which technology improves. Of course we can. Tech R&D rates have always been massively controlled by government funding choices, as most R&D is directly government funded and what R&D occurs in private industry is usually government subsidized.

            Remember when President Kennedy decided to put a man on the moon, and the government poured in massive money to fund that R&D, and the government was able to achieve his goal within 7 years?

            Prizes after the fact seem a bit irrelevant. But grants are already given. I agree they should give more.

            How does spending money on innovation, which creates jobs and boosts the economy, hurt people or the economy? You seem to have it backward.
            Your opinion is noted.

            Forcing technology upon people that isn't ready hurts them because you are forcing them to spend more money to replace things that work perfectly fine as is. If you force everyone to upgrade their buildings and homes, do you think that is free? If you outlaw combustion engines and force everyone to buy electric cars, do you suppose that is free? Do you suppose destroying entire industries like the airline industry won't have any economic impact? Or forcing automobile makers to retool every one of their factories to produce electric cars?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Your opinion is noted.

              Forcing technology upon people that isn't ready hurts them because you are forcing them to spend more money to replace things that work perfectly fine as is. If you force everyone to upgrade their buildings and homes, do you think that is free? If you outlaw combustion engines and force everyone to buy electric cars, do you suppose that is free? Do you suppose destroying entire industries like the airline industry won't have any economic impact? Or forcing automobile makers to retool every one of their factories to produce electric cars?
              This is all about destroying the largest, most powerful economy in human history. Period...
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • According to this article, it's a non binding resolution...yet the Senate may move to vote on it...

                https://www.npr.org/2019/02/12/69406...to-senate-vote
                Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  This is all about destroying the largest, most powerful economy in human history. Period...
                  I don't think so, even though I do tend to think this is a bad idea overall. That is, I tend think the people that are behind it are trying to do good things for people and the environment, they just are misguided in terms of what one can expect from human nature.

                  IOW, It is too close to socialism, and socialism can't work, because it denies a fundamental element of human nature. Most of us are lazy. There are just too many people that won't work unless they have to to survive. Which means those that do work are unjustly penalized supporting the majority that won't. Capitalism mostly works (in spite of it's flaws) because a person can reap the rewards of his labor but is not funded if he won't work. Survival forces people to work (negative reinforcement), and being rewarded for the effort gives positive reinforcement. The best way to get people to do what they need to do is a combination of positive and negative reinforcement. Socialism doesn't have enough or either to be viable long term.




                  Jim
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    I don't think so, even though I do tend to think this is a bad idea overall. That is, I tend think the people that are behind it are trying to do good things for people and the environment, they just are misguided in terms of what one can expect from human nature.

                    IOW, It is too close to socialism, and socialism can't work, because it denies a fundamental element of human nature. Most of us are lazy. There are just too many people that won't work unless they have to to survive. Which means those that do work are unjustly penalized supporting the majority that won't. Capitalism mostly works (in spite of it's flaws) because a person can reap the rewards of his labor but is not funded if he won't work. Survival forces people to work (negative reinforcement), and being rewarded for the effort gives positive reinforcement. The best way to get people to do what they need to do is a combination of positive and negative reinforcement. Socialism doesn't have enough or either to be viable long term.




                    Jim
                    I disagree Jim, I believe leftists hate this country as founded. Remember Obama wanted to "fundamentally transform" this nation. Some liberals (as distinct from leftists) are, I believe, trying to do good. The leftists however are all about control, using what ever vehicle possible (like the environment or income inequality). And undermining our superior position in the world.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      This is all about destroying the largest, most powerful economy in human history. Period...
                      Watermelon environmentalism: Green on the outside, red on the inside.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        I tend think the people that are behind it are trying to do good things for people and the environment, they just are misguided in terms of what one can expect from human nature.
                        What does government action to stop climate change have to do with 'human nature'?

                        IOW, It is too close to socialism, and socialism can't work, because it denies a fundamental element of human nature.
                        This seems a bizarre tangent from left field. It has nothing to do with socialism and nothing to do with human nature.

                        There are just too many people that won't work unless they have to to survive. Which means those that do work are unjustly penalized supporting the majority that won't.
                        Are you talking about a universal basic income? You realize that's not in the Resolution?

                        Capitalism mostly works (in spite of it's flaws) because a person can reap the rewards of his labor but is not funded if he won't work.
                        Most capitalist societies have social security programs for people without jobs. You're confusing how the ownership of businesses is structured (capitalism vs socialism vs communism) with social security programs that can be set to anything in any of those systems.
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                          According to this article, it's a non binding resolution...yet the Senate may move to vote on it...

                          https://www.npr.org/2019/02/12/69406...to-senate-vote
                          And yet the government repeatedly refers to it as a bill

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Is your point that their website could use improvement as it refers to everything as a bill? Or are you genuinely stupid enough to think this is a bill?
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              Is your point that their website could use improvement as it refers to everything as a bill? Or are you genuinely stupid enough to think this is a bill?
                              I’m sure you’re stupid enough not to see it for the power grab it really is or you know that and just playing stupid.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                Is your point that their website could use improvement as it refers to everything as a bill? Or are you genuinely stupid enough to think this is a bill?
                                From the U.S. Senate website under "Legislation, Laws, and Acts"

                                Joint resolutions are designated H.J. Res. or S.J. Res. and are followed by a number. Like a bill, a joint resolution requires the approval of both Chambers in identical form and the president’s signature to become law. There is no real difference between a joint resolution and a bill.


                                Please note the bolded part

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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