Bishops and Apostles

[NorrinRadd]

Ephesians 4

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Since we're straining at gnats.

AFAIK, the only place the term "poimen" is used of a specific person is 1 Pet. 2:25, where it is used of Jesus.

Somewhat similarly, "evangelist" is used of at most two specific people -- Phillip in Acts 21:8, and Timothy in 2 Tim. 4:5. (I say "at most" because that second example is ambiguous. It's not clear whether Timothy "was" an evangelist, or whether he was to "do the work of" one, with or without actually being one.)

Apostle here is a term used particularly of the 12 disciples who had seen the risen Christ. Please see my previous post on Acts 1. This include Matthias. Paul was set apart later as the Apostle to the Gentiles and was numbered with the other Apostles.

All of these Apostles were chosen by Christ, including Paul, so as to be called "apostles of Christ", Galatians 1:1

Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—

And 1 Peter 1:1

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

Galatians 1

15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,

16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles,

Back to Ephesians, the apostles were given the jobs of laying the foundation of the church, 2:20

built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

to receive, declare and write God's word, 3:5,

which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.

and to give confirmation of the word through signs and wonders and miracles. 2 Corinthians 12:12

The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.

As for others, such as Timothy and Barnabas and Silas, etc., they are called "apostles of the churches" instead of "apostles of Christ",

2 Cor. 8:23

As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker for your benefit. And as for our brothers, they are messengers of the churches, the glory of Christ.

Now, since I posted earlier about Timothy not being called an apostle, I have come across 1 Thessalonians 2:6,

Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ.

So, I will concede that Timothy was a small-a apostle, one of those in the latter category of "apostle of the churches".

Thanks. There is some interesting stuff in there. In particular, 2 Cor. 8:23, where most translations obscure the fact that the word is "apostle."

On the whole, I'm not sure it's any "stronger" than my inference from 1 Thess. 1:1 with 2:7. I agree that "apostle" was used in different senses. But in cases like that one and Acts 14:14, where "someone" and Paul are grouped together under the "apostle" label, I see little reason to believe they were two sharply distinct kinds of "apostle."

ETA: This video by Ben Witherington seems pretty much in line with Mossy:

[NorrinRadd]

Romans 16:7 English Standard Version (ESV)

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

It just says they were well known TO the apostles, not that they were apostles.

How many translations would you like me to cite that place them "among" the apostles?

[NorrinRadd]

FWIW, WRT Rom. 16:7...

"The most natural way to read the Greek phrase is that both were apostles; some modern interpreters have rejected this reading mainly because they presuppose that women could never fill this office." -- Keener, in his IVP Bible Background Commentary

Ben Witherington argues that Junia was an apostle. On this page -- in the Comments section -- he addresses and defends the point, albeit mostly by referring the readers to Eldon Epp's book. He also defends the idea in his Socio-Rhetorical Commentary on Paul's Letter to the Romans, there mostly by agreeing with Bauckham (Gospel Women: Studies in the Named Women of the Gospels; Presumably Junia qualifies as a "named woman of the Gospels" via Bauckham's theory that she was the same person as Joanna.).

This seems to be a bit of a rabbit-trail. It is probably impossible to conclusively prove it either way enough to satisfy a person strongly inclined in the opposite direction.

[NorrinRadd]

As a non-Protestant, I think I'll bow out then - because in my tradition, anyone claiming the title today would be rejected out of hand (as would bishops without proper provenance).

I have no opinion as to whether or not you should "bow out."

FTR, my reading of Scripture is that "episkope" and "poimen" and possibly "presbuteros" are overlapping and almost interchangeable.

I also agree with this (boldface emphases my own):

Women can’t be ministers, because only males can be priests offering the sacrifice of the Mass etc. The root problem with this argument is that the NT is perfectly clear that apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, elders, deacons ARE NOT PRIESTS IN THE NT. There is no need for a separate order of priests in the NT because Christ’s sacrifice made obsolete the entire OT sacerdotal system of priests, temples and sacrifices. The only priesthoods we hear about in the NT are: 1) the priesthood of all believers, which of course includes women, and 2) the heavenly high priesthood of Christ (see Hebrews). There is no new priesthood between these two carried over from the OT or inaugurated in the NT era. Indeed the whole language of sacrifice and temple is spiritualized in the NT to refer to our offering of ourselves or our praise to God, and the Temple is described in various places in the NT (cf. 1 Cor. 3-6), as either the believer’s body, or the whole community of Christ in which Christ and the Spirit dwell. The problem here is essentially a hermeneutical one. Somewhere along the way about the time when the church became a licit religion under Constantine the OT hermeneutic took over, a hermeneutic which saw churches as temples, the Lord’s Supper as a sacrifice, ministers as priests, the Lord’s Day as the sabbath, and so on. This did a grave dis-service to the newnness of the new covenant and its facets and features, and the net result was an exclusion of women from various ministries, on grounds the writers of the NT would have rejected outright. (BW3)

Read more at https://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...8DEE8SzGrrR.99

I'm not intending to divert this into yet another "Can women be church leaders?" debate, but I left those parts in to give the full context of the quote.

Also fascinating and provocative is Gordon Fee's essay, "Laos and Leadership under the New Covenant." It was published in Gospel and Spirit -- Issues in New Testament Hermeneutics, and later in Listening to the Spirit in the Text. Sadly, I have not found it in standalone form online.

[Cow Poke]

How many translations would you like me to cite that place them "among" the apostles?

"among" could mean...

1.
surrounded by; in the company of.
"wild strawberries hidden among the roots of the trees"
synonyms: surrounded by, in the company of, amid, in the middle of, between, in the thick of; More
literaryamidst, in the midst of
"you're among friends"

2.
being a member or members of (a larger set).
"snakes are among the animals most feared by humans"
synonyms: included in, one of, some of, in the group of, in the number of, out of
"a child was among the injured"

3.
occurring in or practiced by (some members of a community).
"a drop in tooth decay among children"
involving most or all members of a group reciprocally.
"members of the government bickered among themselves"
4.
indicating a division, choice, or differentiation involving three or more participants.
"the king called the three princesses to divide his kingdom among them"
synonyms: between, to each of
"he had to distribute the proceeds among his creditors"

[Sparko]

How many translations would you like me to cite that place them "among" the apostles?

You haven't cited any so far.

Of note among the apostles just means that they were known among the apostles, not that they WERE apostles. It means that they were known by the apostles.

"Trump is hated among the more radical liberals." doesn't mean Trump IS a radical liberal.

[mossrose]

Back to the op, there are no Apostles today. Paul was the last Apostle.

[One Bad Pig]

I have no opinion as to whether or not you should "bow out."

FTR, my reading of Scripture is that "episkope" and "poimen" and possibly "presbuteros" are overlapping and almost interchangeable.

I also agree with this (boldface emphases my own):

Women can’t be ministers, because only males can be priests offering the sacrifice of the Mass etc. The root problem with this argument is that the NT is perfectly clear that apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, elders, deacons ARE NOT PRIESTS IN THE NT. There is no need for a separate order of priests in the NT because Christ’s sacrifice made obsolete the entire OT sacerdotal system of priests, temples and sacrifices. The only priesthoods we hear about in the NT are: 1) the priesthood of all believers, which of course includes women, and 2) the heavenly high priesthood of Christ (see Hebrews). There is no new priesthood between these two carried over from the OT or inaugurated in the NT era. Indeed the whole language of sacrifice and temple is spiritualized in the NT to refer to our offering of ourselves or our praise to God, and the Temple is described in various places in the NT (cf. 1 Cor. 3-6), as either the believer’s body, or the whole community of Christ in which Christ and the Spirit dwell. The problem here is essentially a hermeneutical one. Somewhere along the way about the time when the church became a licit religion under Constantine the OT hermeneutic took over, a hermeneutic which saw churches as temples, the Lord’s Supper as a sacrifice, ministers as priests, the Lord’s Day as the sabbath, and so on. This did a grave dis-service to the newnness of the new covenant and its facets and features, and the net result was an exclusion of women from various ministries, on grounds the writers of the NT would have rejected outright. (BW3)

Read more at https://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...8DEE8SzGrrR.99

I'm not intending to divert this into yet another "Can women be church leaders?" debate, but I left those parts in to give the full context of the quote.

I agree that episkopoi and presbuteroi were more or less interchangeable in the writings of the NT, but they very quickly became differentiated (see the letters of Ignatius of Antioch, c. 110). In his epistles can also be seen the notion of the bishop as image of Christ (the great high priest) and the Eucharist as sacrifice. There is also no evidence, as far as I know, of women who were episkopoi or presbuteroi prior to Constantine. The argument of this radical change at that time is untenable. Frankly, I expected better of Mr. Witherington.

[NorrinRadd]

You haven't cited any so far.

NIV --7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was." (Albeit with a footnote indicating the ambiguity which we are discussing, viz. "or 'esteemed by'").

NASB -- 7 "Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." (Which unfortunately uses the virtually impossible masculine rendering of "Junias.")

CEB -- 7 "Say hello to Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners. They are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me."

ISV -- 7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who are in prison with me and are prominent among the apostles. They belonged to the Messiah before I did."

NRSV -- 7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."

NKJV -- 7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

WEB -- 7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners, who are notable among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

NCV -- 7 "Greetings to Andronicus and Junia, my relatives, who were in prison with me. They are very important apostles. They were believers in Christ before I was."

NAB -- 7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners; they are prominent among the apostles and they were in Christ before me."

NJB -- 7 "Greetings to those outstanding apostles, Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow-prisoners, who were in Christ before me." (But like the NASB, using the virtually impossible masculine "Junias.")

Of note among the apostles just means that they were known among the apostles, not that they WERE apostles. It means that they were known by the apostles.

"Trump is hated among the more radical liberals." doesn't mean Trump IS a radical liberal.

On that, see my Post #48.

[Mountain Man]

I think anybody who claims the title of "bishop" or "apostle" for himself should have no problem with providing a scriptural justification. The nature of his response will tell you if the title is deserved.

[Sparko]

NIV --7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was." (Albeit with a footnote indicating the ambiguity which we are discussing, viz. "or 'esteemed by'").

NASB -- 7 "Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." (Which unfortunately uses the virtually impossible masculine rendering of "Junias.")

CEB -- 7 "Say hello to Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners. They are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me."

ISV -- 7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who are in prison with me and are prominent among the apostles. They belonged to the Messiah before I did."

NRSV -- 7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."

NKJV -- 7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

WEB -- 7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners, who are notable among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

NCV -- 7 "Greetings to Andronicus and Junia, my relatives, who were in prison with me. They are very important apostles. They were believers in Christ before I was."

NAB -- 7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners; they are prominent among the apostles and they were in Christ before me."

NJB -- 7 "Greetings to those outstanding apostles, Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow-prisoners, who were in Christ before me." (But like the NASB, using the virtually impossible masculine "Junias.")




On that, see my Post #48.

Well, even conceding they were apostles, my initial argument against present day apostles is that new apostles were elected by the existing original apostles who were chosen by Christ, like when they chose Matthias to replace Judas in Acts 1. And there are no original apostles now to choose any new ones.

[Bill the Cat]

Well, even conceding they were apostles, my initial argument against present day apostles is that new apostles were elected by the existing original apostles who were chosen by Christ, like when they chose Matthias to replace Judas in Acts 1. And there are no original apostles now to choose any new ones.

Except the 3 Nephites...

[Cow Poke]

Except the 3 Nephites...

Why, when I see that word, do I always want a Grape Soda?

[mossrose]

Well, even conceding they were apostles, my initial argument against present day apostles is that new apostles were elected by the existing original apostles who were chosen by Christ, like when they chose Matthias to replace Judas in Acts 1. And there are no original apostles now to choose any new ones.

There were different designations to those small-a apostles in the early years after Christ. They were always referred to as "apostles of the Church", not "apostles of Christ", as the 13 were. So anybody other than those 13 who calls themselves an "Apostle of Christ" is plain wrong.

[One Bad Pig]

There were different designations to those small-a apostles in the early years after Christ. They were always referred to as "apostles of the Church", not "apostles of Christ", as the 13 were. So anybody other than those 13 who calls themselves an "Apostle of Christ" is plain wrong.

As far as I recall, they're mostly all just referred to as "apostles". The Orthodox Church distinguishes between the twelve (+Paul) and the seventy (see Luke 10); all the others referenced as apostles are considered to fall in the latter group. Regardless, they were all from the New Testament era.