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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

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Bishops and Apostles

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  • #16
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The concept of the early church was that apostles needed to be sent by Jesus Himself; Paul, who saw him "last of all, as one who is born out of due time" would necessarily have been the last.
    And often he had to defend his Apostleship, because it was a big deal to hold that title.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      The concept of the early church was that apostles needed to be sent by Jesus Himself; Paul, who saw him "last of all, as one who is born out of due time" would necessarily have been the last.
      Scripture proves this untrue.
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
        Scripture proves this untrue.
        How, pray tell?
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #19
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          Scripture proves this untrue.
          When one makes a statement like that, it's generally a good idea to include the Scripture reference.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            In this case, he was on the agenda to speak because the previous president (I'm now president of the association) had invited him, and I inherited that agenda. He failed to show, so if he tries again, I'll just politely tell him he had his chance, and wasn't gracious enough to notify us he wouldn't be there.

            I actually had a meeting with our VP, secretary and treasurer to agree that we'll use those offices (the four of us) as an executive committee to approve or decline any requests to address our group. The others agree we don't really need to hear from an "Apostle" without a really good reason.
            Sounds like your apostolic staff helping you.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              How, pray tell?
              The primary proofs are Acts 14:14 and 1 Thess. 1:1 with 2:7. These show that Barnabas, Silvanus, and Timothy were all apostles in the same class as Paul.

              Rom. 16:7 shows Andronicus and Junia were apostles in some sense, but not necessarily in the same sense as Paul.

              One could easily infer from Eph. 4:10-14 and 1 Cor. 12:28 in the whole context of 1 Cor. 12-14 that all gifts including apostles will remain until the Lord's return, but even if that is not the case, Scripture clearly shows the existence of apostles later than Paul.

              Honestly, it baffles me that people keep trotting out the "Paul was the last apostle" trope.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                The primary proofs are Acts 14:14 and 1 Thess. 1:1 with 2:7. These show that Barnabas, Silvanus, and Timothy were all apostles in the same class as Paul.

                Rom. 16:7 shows Andronicus and Junia were apostles in some sense, but not necessarily in the same sense as Paul.

                One could easily infer from Eph. 4:10-14 and 1 Cor. 12:28 in the whole context of 1 Cor. 12-14 that all gifts including apostles will remain until the Lord's return, but even if that is not the case, Scripture clearly shows the existence of apostles later than Paul.

                Honestly, it baffles me that people keep trotting out the "Paul was the last apostle" trope.
                And, yet, in Acts 1, Peter gives specific instructions on who was qualified to be an Apostle, when they were replacing Judas.

                From the blog post here: https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B13...e-risen-christ

                The first chapter of Acts gives a fascinating, intimate glimpse of the Body of Christ in its infancy, including a detailed account of how the apostles identified the man who would replace Judas as the twelfth apostle. In verses 21-22, Peter declares that

                "it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us—beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

                According to Peter, the new apostle needed to be someone who was associated with Christ, who had consistently sat under His teaching, and who had witnessed firsthand His ministry and life. It wasn’t enough to know about Christ—the replacement apostle needed to know Him personally. In particular, he needed to have known Christ after His resurrection.
                The key being "witnesses to the resurrection", which the men you mentioned in the NT likely were. Nobody since Paul has seen the resurrected Lord.


                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                  The key being "witnesses to the resurrection", which the men you mentioned in the NT likely were. Nobody since Paul has seen the resurrected Lord.
                  Well, it is unlikely that Timothy was a witness to the resurrection, as he is pretty clearly younger than Paul. It is also unlikely that Paul would have considered Timothy an apostle at the point he first visited Thessalonica in Acts 17 (he had just added Timothy to his care the previous chapter; he was not part of the mission as sent from Antioch).
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    On a side note, one of my favorite Bible Trivia questions is ... who is the most important Apostle in the Bible - the one who had the greatest impact on Salvation?

                    Very few people ever name Jesus.

                    “Consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession” (Hebrews 3:1)


                    BIBLE TRIVIA, not theology!
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Well, it is unlikely that Timothy was a witness to the resurrection, as he is pretty clearly younger than Paul. It is also unlikely that Paul would have considered Timothy an apostle at the point he first visited Thessalonica in Acts 17 (he had just added Timothy to his care the previous chapter; he was not part of the mission as sent from Antioch).

                      Paul's conversion didn't take place that many years after the resurrection. Timothy may have been a child, but it's very possible that he and his family were some of the tens of thousands who were in Jerusalem that Passover week.


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        Paul's conversion didn't take place that many years after the resurrection. Timothy may have been a child, but it's very possible that he and his family were some of the tens of thousands who were in Jerusalem that Passover week.
                        Possible, but his father was a Greek - and may not have been willing to make such trips, or allow his family members to make them; after all, he didn't allow his son to be circumcised, and that was much more important than a trip to Jerusalem.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Possible, but his father was a Greek - and may not have been willing to make such trips, or allow his family members to make them; after all, he didn't allow his son to be circumcised, and that was much more important than a trip to Jerusalem.

                          Then perhaps Timothy and the others cannot be considered capital "A" Apostles. There were many "a" apostles.


                          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I don't think Timothy was actually ever called an apostle in scripture, but a pastor.

                            Somebody prove me wrong.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              I don't think Timothy was actually ever called an apostle in scripture, but a pastor.

                              Somebody prove me wrong.
                              That's what NorrinRad tried to assert by referencing 1 Thes. 1:1 and 2:7.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                That's what NorrinRad tried to assert by referencing 1 Thes. 1:1 and 2:7.

                                Pretty weak as an argument for calling these men Apostles.


                                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                                Comment

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