Bishops and Apostles

[mossrose]

According to Philippians 2:19-23, Timothy is one of Paul's most notable disciples, but is called a preacher.

[NorrinRadd]

I don't think Timothy was actually ever called an apostle in scripture, but a pastor.

Somebody prove me wrong.

No one but Jesus was ever actually called "pastor" or "shepherd."

Since we're straining at gnats.

[mossrose]

No one but Jesus was ever actually called "pastor" or "shepherd."

Since we're straining at gnats.

Ephesians 4

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Since we're straining at gnats.

Apostle here is a term used particularly of the 12 disciples who had seen the risen Christ. Please see my previous post on Acts 1. This include Matthias. Paul was set apart later as the Apostle to the Gentiles and was numbered with the other Apostles.

All of these Apostles were chosen by Christ, including Paul, so as to be called "apostles of Christ", Galatians 1:1

Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—

And 1 Peter 1:1

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

Galatians 1

15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,

16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles,

Back to Ephesians, the apostles were given the jobs of laying the foundation of the church, 2:20

built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

to receive, declare and write God's word, 3:5,

which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.

and to give confirmation of the word through signs and wonders and miracles. 2 Corinthians 12:12

The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.

As for others, such as Timothy and Barnabas and Silas, etc., they are called "apostles of the churches" instead of "apostles of Christ",

2 Cor. 8:23

As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker for your benefit. And as for our brothers, they are messengers of the churches, the glory of Christ.

Now, since I posted earlier about Timothy not being called an apostle, I have come across 1 Thessalonians 2:6,

Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ.

So, I will concede that Timothy was a small-a apostle, one of those in the latter category of "apostle of the churches".

[One Bad Pig]

No one but Jesus was ever actually called "pastor" or "shepherd."

...because it was a role, not a formal title used in the early church - doubtless why protestants decided they could use it. It was clearly assigned to at least Peter (John 21).

[Sparko]

The primary proofs are Acts 14:14 and 1 Thess. 1:1 with 2:7. These show that Barnabas, Silvanus, and Timothy were all apostles in the same class as Paul.

Rom. 16:7 shows Andronicus and Junia were apostles in some sense, but not necessarily in the same sense as Paul.

One could easily infer from Eph. 4:10-14 and 1 Cor. 12:28 in the whole context of 1 Cor. 12-14 that all gifts including apostles will remain until the Lord's return, but even if that is not the case, Scripture clearly shows the existence of apostles later than Paul.

Honestly, it baffles me that people keep trotting out the "Paul was the last apostle" trope.

Romans 16:7 English Standard Version (ESV)

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

It just says they were well known TO the apostles, not that they were apostles.

[Cow Poke]

Romans 16:7 English Standard Version (ESV)

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

It just says they were well known TO the apostles, not that they were apostles.

Yeah, Darby renders it - Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles; who were also in Christ before me.
And Young's Literal - salute Andronicus and Junias, my kindred, and my fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.
And CSB - Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me.

They were, apparently, Christians before Saul became a Christian, and were well known among the Apostles.

[Bill the Cat]

I think that instead of arguing over whether there WERE apostles and other titles in the primitive church, we should get back to focusing on the independent "church" charlatans today who have no authority to claim the titles and no accountability above them.

[One Bad Pig]

I think that instead of arguing over whether there WERE apostles and other titles in the primitive church, we should get back to focusing on the independent "church" charlatans today who have no authority to claim the titles and no accountability above them.

As a non-Protestant, I think I'll bow out then - because in my tradition, anyone claiming the title today would be rejected out of hand (as would bishops without proper provenance).

[Cow Poke]

I think arguing over whether there WERE apostles and other titles in the primitive church, we should get back to focusing on the independent "church" charlatans today who have no authority to claim the titles and no accountability above them.

Agreed, I was kinda surprised that it turned into a.... yes.

I mentioned this "modern day Apostle" thing in Sunday School yesterday, and it was pointed out that yet another local pastor had assumed the name "Apostle", and they got a new sign in front of their church noting that change. I happen to know that his church is a "full gospel" church not affiliated with any particular denomination or hierarchy, so it appears this title was either self appointed, or his own congregation anointed him thusly.

I'll see him next Thursday and I'll ask him about it.

[Cow Poke]

As a non-Protestant, I think I'll bow out then - because in my tradition, anyone claiming the title today would be rejected out of hand (as would bishops without proper provenance).

I don't think you should bow out -- I think that's worthwhile input! And to the point.

[mossrose]

I think that instead of arguing over whether there WERE apostles and other titles in the primitive church, we should get back to focusing on the independent "church" charlatans today who have no authority to claim the titles and no accountability above them.

Yes.

[mossrose]

As a non-Protestant, I think I'll bow out then - because in my tradition, anyone claiming the title today would be rejected out of hand (as would bishops without proper provenance).

I don't think you'd get much disagreement from a great deal of Protestants here.

[Sparko]

Yeah, Darby renders it - Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles; who were also in Christ before me.
And Young's Literal - salute Andronicus and Junias, my kindred, and my fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.
And CSB - Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me.

They were, apparently, Christians before Saul became a Christian, and were well known among the Apostles.

"of note" means "known by" or "acknowledged"

I am not too sure about Slyvius and crew in 1 Thess either. He just mentions the letter is from them and then uses "we" a lot, and mentions apostles (in 2:6 not 2:7)

6 Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ.

He could have just meant that he was the apostle and as they were with him, they all could have made demands as one. Or he could have been using a royal "we". But you really have to read between the lines to get your conclusion. It is not spelled out clearly.

[Sparko]

One requirement to being an Apostle is that the other original Apostles had to acknowledge it and accept him. That is what happened with Paul and I would argue with Barnabas and any other apostle in the NT. Anyone trying to claim to being an apostle today would not be approved by any original Apostle.

[Cow Poke]

"of note" means "known by" or "acknowledged"

Yeah, "of note". Well known by, respected by...