Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 27

Thread: INF Treaty

  1. #1
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    invalid value
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,440
    Amen (Given)
    14
    Amen (Received)
    326

    INF Treaty

    Trump lets Putin off the hook.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

  2. #2
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    19,330
    Amen (Given)
    5531
    Amen (Received)
    10664
    More like, Trump lets US off the hook.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  3. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  4. #3
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    invalid value
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,440
    Amen (Given)
    14
    Amen (Received)
    326
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    More like, Trump lets US off the hook.
    Putin is laughing his head off. He was believed to be breaking the treaty and has now escaped any possible sanctions. These weapons are intended to intimidate Europe. Trump has turned his back on his European allies.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

  5. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
  6. #4
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Maryland
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,522
    Amen (Given)
    194
    Amen (Received)
    1259
    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    Putin is laughing his head off. He was believed to be breaking the treaty and has now escaped any possible sanctions. These weapons are intended to intimidate Europe. Trump has turned his back on his European allies.
    It's bad in term of Russia/Europe/US tension. Its feels to the Europeans like we are continuing to abandon our NATO commitments. It's bad in terms of opening back up an unbridled arms race between the US and Russia. It is good in that China has no limits on its capacity to produce such missiles and has been producing them and we can't respond to their actions. With Russia producing them anyway (but perhaps at a reduced rate) I am not sure what the right decision would be. Certainly without the treaty they'll make as many as they want and as many of them as they think will give them an advantage. But I'm not sure that having hard limits on our production serves our interests if both China and Russia are continuing to produce them and we are not. It certainly would be the most scary for Europe, at the same time if they produce them and deploy them in mass, we will (or should) certainly respond in kind. We need them in Japan(Taiwan?) anyway if China is going to have them. As usual, its a nasty mess made worse by Trump being a jerk.

    Jim
    Jorge's trueorigins paper: "...it is known that other volcanic features match what is usually associated with impact craters including ... shatter cones and crystal deformations"

    Planetary Science Institute: "Shatter cones … are found in only two places on Earth, 1) in nuclear test sites and 2) meteorite impact structures. They are formed as a result of the high pressure, high velocity shock wave ...

    maximum pressures from 45 to 200 times greater than found in volcanic events (2->20 Gpa)

  7. #5
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    United States
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    13,783
    Amen (Given)
    5283
    Amen (Received)
    4887
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    More like, Trump lets US off the hook.
    Pretty much. For six-years, Russia has been thumbing its nose at a treaty put in place by the Obama administration, so what's the point of even leaving it in place?

    Secretary of State Mike Pompeo:

    When an agreement is so brazenly disregarded and our security is so openly threatened, we must respond. We did that last December when the United States, with strong support from all of our NATO allies, formally declared Russia in material breach of the treaty. I also then provided notice that unless Russia returned to full and verifiable compliance within 60 days, we would suspend our obligation under that treaty.

    We provided Russia an ample window of time to mend its ways and for Russia to honor its commitment. Tomorrow that time runs out. Russia has refused to take any steps to return real and verifiable compliance over these 60 days.

    The United States will therefore suspend its obligations under the INF Treaty effective February 2nd. We will provide Russia and the other treaty parties with formal notice that the United States is withdrawing from the INF Treaty effective in six months, pursuant to Article 15 of the treaty.

    Russia has jeopardized the United States security interest, and we can no longer be restricted by the treaty while Russia shamelessly violates it. If Russia does not return to full and verifiable compliance with the treaty within this six-month period by verifiably destroying its INF-violating missiles, their launchers, and associated equipment, the treaty will terminate.

    Before I close, I want to give a special thanks to our NATO allies who have stood with us in our mission to uphold the rule of law and protect our people. Their solidarity reflects the historical strength and unity of the NATO alliance. Their support is good for our shared security, it’s good for trans-Atlantic unity, and it’s good for international peace and security. President Trump is grateful for all that you have done.

    The United States is hopeful that we can put our relationship with Russia back on a better footing, but the onus is on Russia to change course from a pattern of destabilizing activity, not just on this issue but on many others as well. The United States stands ready to engage with Russia on arms control negotiations that advance U.S. and allied and partners’ security, and are verifiable and enforceable. It must also include all the partners that must all responsibly comply with their obligations. As we remain hopeful of a fundamental shift in Russia’s posture, the United States will continue to do what is best for our people and those of our allies.

    Responding to a question on whether or not this will lead to an arms-race with Russia:

    Well, the very risk that you identified is the one that we are suffering from today. The Russians are in violation of the agreement. That is, their commitment – this agreement that’s been in place for an awfully long time – the Russians have been violating. That is, they have begun to move towards what it is – that risk you actually have just identified. And you heard me this morning: We’ll continue to have conversations with them. We hope they’ll come back into compliance. We’ve had conversations at every level, at the senior levels, at technical levels, conversations about the nature of these systems. There’s no mistaking that the Russians have chosen to not comply with this treaty and present the risk of continued arms growth in a way that they had committed to back when they signed this treaty that they would not do, and if you just have one party to a treaty complying, you’re down the path that you describe.

    ...

    But ... it does no good to sign an agreement if a party’s not going to comply with it. The piece of paper, if it’s not being complied with, is – doesn’t reduce the risk, it doesn’t take down that threat.

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com...to-inf-treaty/
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  8. #6
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    19,330
    Amen (Given)
    5531
    Amen (Received)
    10664
    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    Putin is laughing his head off. He was believed to be breaking the treaty and has now escaped any possible sanctions.
    Oh, sanctions. I'm sure those had Putin shaking in his boots.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  9. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  10. #7
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    11,530
    Amen (Given)
    1450
    Amen (Received)
    1386
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Oh, sanctions. I'm sure those had Putin shaking in his boots.
    Not with his partner Trump in the White House he isn't.

  11. #8
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Wayne Township, PA
    Faith
    Full Gospel Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,330
    Amen (Given)
    791
    Amen (Received)
    459
    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    It's bad in term of Russia/Europe/US tension. Its feels to the Europeans like we are continuing to abandon our NATO commitments. It's bad in terms of opening back up an unbridled arms race between the US and Russia. It is good in that China has no limits on its capacity to produce such missiles and has been producing them and we can't respond to their actions. With Russia producing them anyway (but perhaps at a reduced rate) I am not sure what the right decision would be. Certainly without the treaty they'll make as many as they want and as many of them as they think will give them an advantage. But I'm not sure that having hard limits on our production serves our interests if both China and Russia are continuing to produce them and we are not. It certainly would be the most scary for Europe, at the same time if they produce them and deploy them in mass, we will (or should) certainly respond in kind. We need them in Japan(Taiwan?) anyway if China is going to have them. As usual, its a nasty mess made worse by Trump being a jerk.

    Jim
    This statement from NATO doesn't quite support your assessment.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  12. #9
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    19,330
    Amen (Given)
    5531
    Amen (Received)
    10664
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Not with his partner Trump in the White House he isn't.
    Nice attempt to ignore the broader question. Since when have sanctions caused regimes to significantly alter their goals?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  13. #10
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    11,530
    Amen (Given)
    1450
    Amen (Received)
    1386
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Nice attempt to ignore the broader question. Since when have sanctions caused regimes to significantly alter their goals?
    When they hurt significantly enough. Iran agreed to the nuclear treaty in order to lift the crushing economic sanctions.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •