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Why Democrats Can�t Talk Honestly About Abortion
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Personally I was wondering yesterday why conservatives on this forum are never honest about abortion."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostPersonally I was wondering yesterday why conservatives on this forum are never honest about abortion.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostWhen does murder stop being okay?
We don't toss chimps in prison for killing their fellow chimps. Though, that may be because they have the intellect of a small child...
A rock has no mind at all, so cutting up rocks isn't a moral issue at all. A plant has virtually zero mind so cutting them up is pretty much not a problem. Small insects just work on a few neurons guiding them to move around so squashing them isn't really an issue. But with the higher mammals they start to have quite sophisticated mental abilities: Consciousness, basic language, ability to mourn, good memories, complex social behaviors and interactions, can learn to use tools to solve basic problems, can recognize themselves in a mirror, etc. So the killing of higher-cognition animals for food is a very morally problematic practice. As such I want to see society protect all higher-cognition animals and move away from using them as a food source for humans.
With regard to human development, any given human starts out as a single fertilized cell which obviously at that stage of development has zero brain and zero mental abilities. As the fetus develops it begins to develop a brain, creates some basic mental connections etc. Humans are actually a quite unusually late-developing species when it comes to mental development. e.g. a baby horse is born with the ability to walk within an hour or two of birth etc while a baby human takes about a year to learn to walk. The reason for this is because humans stand upright the hips of human mothers are narrow compared to other species and hence human babies heads get squashed as they go through the birth canal. A result of this squashing is that the human infants brain would receive massive brain damage if it had been significantly developed pre-birth, so instead human infants have evolved to have absolutely minimal pre-birth brain development and to begin brain development post-birth. Whereas species like horses can have their offspring born with a fairly fully developed brain that knows how to walk etc. Post-birth human babies then being to rapidly develop their brains, surpassing apes in intelligence / mental capabilities at about 2 years of age.
So looked at on the scale of mental abilities, a pre-birth human fetus has a level of mental development lower than that of a cow or a sheep, animals which our society currently regularly slaughters for food (which I think is morally wrong and shouldn't be done - see above). In that context, a choice to abort a fetus is less morally wrong than the choice to kill an animal for food, because the mental development of the fetus is lower than that of the animal being killed.Last edited by Starlight; 02-05-2019, 04:45 PM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWell a lot of conservatives on this forum who get so hung up about abortion seem to be fine with murder when its done by police to criminals, the State in the death-penalty, soldiers in wars, or by drone strikes. All of which I am against in general. So maybe ask yourself and fellow conservatives your question first: Why you all are so okay with murder under many circumstances but get very upset about it when it comes to abortion?
In my view, which is a very common view among secular people, though not shared by everyone: What matters is the mental abilities of the victim.
A rock has no mind at all, so cutting up rocks isn't a moral issue at all. A plant has virtually zero mind so cutting them up is pretty much not a problem. Small insects just work on a few neurons guiding them to move around so squashing them isn't really an issue. But with the higher mammals they start to have quite sophisticated mental abilities: Consciousness, basic language, ability to mourn, good memories, complex social behaviors and interactions, can learn to use tools to solve basic problems, can recognize themselves in a mirror, etc. So the killing of higher-cognition animals for food is a very morally problematic practice. As such I want to see society protect all higher-cognition animals and move away from using them as a food source for humans.
With regard to human development, any given human starts out as a single fertilized cell which obviously at that stage of development has zero brain and zero mental abilities. As the fetus develops it begins to develop a brain, creates some basic mental connections etc. Humans are actually a quite unusually late-developing species when it comes to mental development. e.g. a baby horse is born with the ability to walk within an hour or two of birth etc while a baby human takes about a year to learn to walk. The reason for this is because humans stand upright the hips of human mothers are narrow compared to other species and hence human babies heads get squashed as they go through the birth canal. A result of this squashing is that the human infants brain would receive massive brain damage if it had been significantly developed pre-birth, so instead human infants have evolved to have absolutely minimal pre-birth brain development and to begin brain development post-birth. Whereas species like horses can have their offspring born with a fairly fully developed brain that knows how to walk etc. Post-birth human babies then being to rapidly develop their brains, surpassing apes in intelligence / mental capabilities at about 2 years of age.
So looked at on the scale of mental abilities, a pre-birth human fetus has a level of mental development lower than that of a cow or a sheep, animals which our society currently regularly slaughters for food (which I think is morally wrong and shouldn't be done - see above). In that context, a choice to abort a fetus is less morally wrong than the choice to kill an animal for food, because the mental development of the fetus is lower than that of the animal being killed."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
and, if those babies happen to survive an attempt on their lives, after birth, as well.
Note that I am not taking a position on, or defending, late-term abortions. I find abortions abhorrent. But there is no need to mislead in order to take a position.
And I will ask a question I asked CP in another venue: do any of you honestly believe that some 58% (sorry, CP, I think I used 65% as the number in my question to you. I had my stats crossed) of the people around you are functioning sociopaths? I'd be very interested in knowing what the answer to this question is. To help:
Sociopath: a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.Last edited by carpedm9587; 02-05-2019, 04:48 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostSo, when do you want some fetus burgers, star?
I would, however, like to try artificially grown meat burgers that grow the meat in a lab without killing any animals...
"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostPersonally I was wondering yesterday why conservatives on this forum are never honest about abortion.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWell a lot of conservatives on this forum who get so hung up about abortion seem to be fine with murder when its done by police to criminals...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostBabies are sterile."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAny screed that begins with this much jacakssery deserves to be ignored."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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