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Thread: AOC and Dark Politics

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    AOC and Dark Politics

    I have to admit, I've been seeing AOC as an upstart that is naive and has little true idea of "how things work."

    Due to this 5 minute segment, I think I've changed my mind. AOC exposes the dark underbelly of politics brilliantly.

    Note that this is not left-leaning or right-leaning - we should ALL be concerned about this state of affairs, IMO.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

  2. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
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    tWebber
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    Welcome to the world of true concerns about growing governments.

    You are starting to see the issues that have been on my mind but I wasn't sure how to wake you up to it.

    Thanks, AOC.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I have to admit, I've been seeing AOC as an upstart that is naive and has little true idea of "how things work."

    Due to this 5 minute segment, I think I've changed my mind. AOC exposes the dark underbelly of politics brilliantly.

    Note that this is not left-leaning or right-leaning - we should ALL be concerned about this state of affairs, IMO.
    Interesting.

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    Welcome to the world of true concerns about growing governments.

    You are starting to see the issues that have been on my mind but I wasn't sure how to wake you up to it.

    Thanks, AOC.
    Wake ME up to it? Are you under the illusion that I have not been aware of it?

    I have known of this for a long, long, time. And I believe the so-called Citizen's United ruling was one of the worst decisions in terms of cleaning up our political system.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Wake ME up to it? Are you under the illusion that I have not been aware of it?

    I have known of this for a long, long, time. And I believe the so-called Citizen's United ruling was one of the worst decisions in terms of cleaning up our political system.
    Do you even understand what Citizen's United case was about?

    In the case, the conservative non-profit organization Citizens United sought to air a film critical of Hillary Clinton and to advertise the film during television broadcasts shortly before the 2008 Democratic primary election in which Clinton was running for U.S. President.

    The federal law, however, prohibited any corporation (or labor union) from making an "electioneering communication" (defined as a broadcast ad reaching over 50,000 people in the electorate) within 30 days of a primary or 60 days of an election, or making any expenditure advocating the election or defeat of a candidate at any time. The court found that these provisions of the law conflicted with the United States Constitution.

    The court upheld requirements, however, for public disclosure by sponsors of advertisements. The case did not affect the federal ban on direct contributions from corporations or unions to candidate campaigns or political parties.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC
    Do you agree that a group of people should not have the right to air a film critical of a politician because it reached over 50,000 people, and fell within 30 days of a primary or 60 days of an election? That seems rather unamerican to me
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Do you even understand what Citizen's United case was about?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Do you agree that a group of people should not have the right to air a film critical of a politician because it reached over 50,000 people, and fell within 30 days of a primary or 60 days of an election? That seems rather unamerican to me
    What the ruling did was to opened the election process to an enormous amount of dark money. Now - any group with adequate funds can air anything they wish as often as possible and, as long as they are not directly coordinating with the candidate, there is no limit whatsoever. It effectively turned money into speech. Now, to compete with a single wealthy donor or corporation - which can move quickly and decisively, a poor individual would have to form a group/corporation and gather the resources of thousands of people (or find a wealthy donor) to even be able to air an ad. And given that the top 1% owns 43% of the wealth, and the top 20% owns 97% of the wealth, leaving the bottom 80% to share 3% of the wealth in the U.S., Citizens United gave the wealthy and corporations a disproportionate voice.

    Indeed, a single corporation could fund an entire candidate's ad campaign and - as long as they do not directly coordinate with the campaign or donate the funds to them - there is no need for disclosure.

    Bad, IMO. VERY bad.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

  8. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    What the ruling did was to opened the election process to an enormous amount of dark money. Now - any group with adequate funds can air anything they wish as often as possible and, as long as they are not directly coordinating with the candidate, there is no limit whatsoever. It effectively turned money into speech. Now, to compete with a single wealthy donor or corporation - which can move quickly and decisively, a poor individual would have to form a group/corporation and gather the resources of thousands of people (or find a wealthy donor) to even be able to air an ad. And given that the top 1% owns 43% of the wealth, and the top 20% owns 97% of the wealth, leaving the bottom 80% to share 3% of the wealth in the U.S., Citizens United gave the wealthy and corporations a disproportionate voice.
    See, so what you want to do is limit speech. Plain and simple. As the Majority opinion stated: "If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech." But that is exactly what you support Carp. It is a free speech question Carp, and always will be.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    See, so what you want to do is limit speech. Plain and simple.
    No. Absolutely not. But I don't think that one group/person should have a bigger megaphone for their speech than another simply because they are wealthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    As the Majority opinion stated: "If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech." But that is exactly what you support Carp. It is a free speech question Carp, and always will be.
    No. The limit is not on what they can say - so it is not a free speech issue. The limit is on the tools they can purchase by which to say it. No one is being jailed for saying "This is what I think." They were being fined for leveraging their wealth and the media world to blast what they think in a way not available to others.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    "Now that I've used these same loopholes and 'dirty money' to get myself elected, I'm going to complain about how corrupt the system is."
    -Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

    OK, that wasn't nice. She makes a good point even if she is a hypocrite.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    No. Absolutely not. But I don't think that one group/person should have a bigger megaphone for their speech than another simply because they are wealthy.
    That is the way life works Carp, not all things are equal. And trying to make it equal in this case steps on the free speech of many. And you don't have to be wealthy, I support certain religious legal and pro-life lobbying groups, and we are not rich, so we pool our funds. Besides, In think all of this was legal before the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002.

    No.The limit is not on what they can say - so it is not a free speech issue. The limit is on the tools they can purchase by which to say it. No one is being jailed for saying "This is what I think." They were being fined for leveraging their wealth and the media world to blast what they think in a way not available to others.
    Of course it is a free speech issue, restricting the time and place, or be fined or jailed, as the Supreme Court found. Never mind that they used the law selectively, stopping Citizen United but not Michael Moore:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citize...FEC#Background
    Last edited by seer; 02-08-2019 at 11:52 AM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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