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AOC and Dark Politics

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The question is, did Cortez decide to decry this as immoral before or after she took advantage of it to win her election?
    You have not made the case that she "took advantage of it." The opensecrets link identifies large and small INDIVIDUAL donations - no corporate donations. Your own article does not show corporate donations - it shows individual donations.

    You came to a gunfight without any weapon of any sort, MM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      If they were individual donations then why do they list a corporate affiliation? You do realize that it is a common practice for companies to donate to a candidate through their employees for legal reasons, right?
      Citations please. This is a common claim from the right. While I am sure it happens, I have seen no data to suggest it is "common." So - evidence...?

      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      And you ignored the second link showing she received money directly from corporations.

      The disclosures show that Ocasio-Cortez received $3,399 from JP Morgan Chase, a major Wall Street corporate bank, and $2,700 from Elevation Partners, a New York-based private equity firm with nearly $2 billion in assets.

      https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/0...eres-the-truth

      As the saying goes, socialists don't like rich people, but they do like rich people's money.

      I'm just curious if she grew a conscience before or after she benefited from the system that she now insists is corrupt.
      And the very next paragraph - which you conveniently omitted - said:

      While the JP Morgan Chase donations came from two company employees, the Elevation Parters' donation came via Roger McNamee, a founding parter at the firm.


      So it identified three INDIVIDUALS as the donors - not the companies for which they work. That is confirmed by the Openscrets record.

      Again... gunfight...no weapon...


      ETA: you do not strike me as a dumb person, MM - so this is beginning to look intentionally misleading on your part. Either that, or you are SO partisan you cannot see the game you are playing.
      Last edited by carpedm9587; 02-08-2019, 06:53 PM.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        The same restrictions should be placed on everyone, Seer. All sides - all contexts. Limits on the amount corporations and individuals can contribute to any form of political advertising that supports or endorses one candidate in favor of another, or denigrates one candidate in favor of another.

        News media are going to be a tougher nut to crack. Reporting the news should be "reporting the news." Unfortunately, the erosion of journalistic neutrality has created a mess there. I have no idea how to fix it.
        But Michael Moore's movie company got to run his anti-Bush movie, and did you watch CNN, MSNBC or NBC or read the New York Times during this past election? They were completely biased against Trump. They were nearly as bad with George W. during his second run. They are corporations and they are influencing public opinion - big time. It would be completely unfair tie the hands of a small pro-family group like Citizens United while giving these media conglomerates free reign. And until you apply the same standard to them, there is no way I would support restrictions on other groups.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          But Michael Moore's movie company got to run his anti-Bush movie, and did you watch CNN, MSNBC or NBC or read the New York Times during this past election? They were completely biased against Trump. They were nearly as bad with George W. during his second run. They are corporations and they are influencing public opinion - big time. It would be completely unfair tie the hands of a small pro-family group like Citizens United while giving these media conglomerates free reign. And until you apply the same standard to them, there is no way I would support restrictions on other groups.
          I don't care what DID happen, Seer - I care about what happens going forward. Dark money in politics needs to end - for ANY politician.

          I've made the case and explained why. I'll leave the last word to you.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            If they were individual donations then why do they list a corporate affiliation?
            Because the law requires disclosure of donor's employer.

            You do realize that it is a common practice for companies to donate to a candidate through their employees for legal reasons, right?
            This is false and you're making this up. Any such action would be totally illegal.

            And you ignored the second link showing she received money directly from corporations.
            She did not. She received it from individual employees who happened to work at those corporations.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              I don't care what DID happen, Seer - I care about what happens going forward. Dark money in politics needs to end - for ANY politician.

              I've made the case and explained why. I'll leave the last word to you.
              What happened Carp, is that the law was applied selectively to Citizen United and not to Michael Moore's movie company, and you are not willing to apply the same rules to media conglomerates. Which is hypocritical.
              Last edited by seer; 02-08-2019, 07:08 PM.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                So it identified three INDIVIDUALS as the donors - not the companies for which they work. That is confirmed by the Openscrets record.
                There's a reason the corporations are listed. They're not private donations.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Do you even understand what Citizen's United case was about?



                  Do you agree that a group of people should not have the right to air a film critical of a politician because it reached over 50,000 people, and fell within 30 days of a primary or 60 days of an election? That seems rather unamerican to me
                  The problem is that what you identify the case as being about is not what the ruling ultimately decided. If it had simply been a more narrow decision concerning the film by Citizens United, such as ruling the timing restrictions were unconstitutional, I doubt the case would have been particularly controversial. But the Supreme Court did a whole lot more than that in their decision, taking what was presented as a fairly narrow question and giving a substantially more expansive answer than was necessary... not unlike what they did in Dred Scott v. Sandford and Roe v. Wade.

                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Which has nothing to do with this issue, nor did I say "all things have to be equal." But we live in a land where speech is valued, and our political system depends on the contributions of the electorate. Citizen's United gave a disproportionate voice to the wealthy - which is the very opposite of what our political system is supposed to be about. The first amendment guarantees everyone the right to speak what they think without being penalized for its content. It was interpreted by SCOTUS to ALSO mean "by any means and with any amount of money." The founders had no way of foreseeing the impact of mass media in 2019 - and the way "free speech" could become a weapon the wealthy use to over-rule the less wealthy.
                  This has always struck me as a weak argument: "The Founders could not have foreseen..." Sure, there's a number of things they couldn't have foreseen. That's why they put in an amendment process to the constitution. There was stuff that happened within decades of ratification they didn't foresee, hence the 11th Amendment. Indeed, there have been multiple Amendments that were passed specifically to overturn a previous Supreme Court decision.
                  Last edited by Terraceth; 02-09-2019, 01:30 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    ...
                    News media are going to be a tougher nut to crack. Reporting the news should be "reporting the news." Unfortunately, the erosion of journalistic neutrality has created a mess there. I have no idea how to fix it.
                    Right. So let's start there. Once we figure out a good way to handle that, THEN think about what, if anything, to do about "money in politics" more broadly.
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                      This has always struck me as a weak argument: "The Founders could not have foreseen..." Sure, there's a number of things they couldn't have foreseen. That's why they put in an amendment process to the constitution.
                      An issue seems to be though that the US constitution is too difficult to amend.

                      An issue I see around the world is that it's difficult to strike the correct balance as to how difficult it should be to amend a constitution. e.g. Alabama's constitution by contrast has 928 amendments which is just getting absurd.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                        Right. So let's start there. Once we figure out a good way to handle that, THEN think about what, if anything, to do about "money in politics" more broadly.
                        Start by fixing the impossible and then move onto the merely difficult?

                        Large media corporations are, pretty much by definition, owned and run by extremely wealthy people, are funded by extremely wealthy corporations who advertise with them, and pay their anchors millions per year. As a result, they have an innate bias toward the viewpoints of wealthy individuals and wealthy corporations and support for the current system in which they themselves are thriving. That's simply an innate structural problem that there's little getting around. You can slap a bit of a band-aid on it by having a Fairness Doctrine law that requires them to make an effort to be neutral, or have some strong anti-monopolistic regulations to try and keep them broken up into a bunch of smaller companies... but behind the scenes there's still going to be the issue that they're run and owned by rich people who are being paid from rich companies advertising with them who have achieved whatever positions and riches they have under the current system and are going to oppose any political and economic change as a result unless it benefits them.

                        A common alternative which seems to work better in general is to have State-owned and operated media - e.g. the BBC (UK), ABC (Australia), TVNZ (New Zealand), CBC (Canada), Al Jazeera (Qatari) etc. Usually the operation of these entities is well-separated from politicians and the government itself and the entity is operated completely independently of government save its funding, and laws require its operations to be politically neutral. An advantage of such media environments is the government funding means it is not so dependent on large amounts of private advertiser money, and also the salaries are often a bit lower, meaning these organisations are often more truly politically neutral than the private media companies owned by the wealthy are. Of course, it is possible for the government to actively subvert the State owned media to spread state propaganda (e.g. in Russia and China) but it is usually relatively obvious to everyone when this is happening. But in general, for this reason, the state media is more likely to be trustworthy in democracies than in dictatorships!

                        The best model I am aware of though is that followed by the Guardian newspaper in the UK, which is funded from a trust. The trust was created from a large donation in 1936, the interest from which is used to fund the operation of the paper as an independent media outlet that since it has its own funding does not need to rely on advertisers or governments or the rich in general for its funding. The paper can thus operate independently.

                        Another model gaining popularity is online media outlets funded by subscription models in which subscribers using Patreon or similar pledge a few dollars each per month, and thus are able to scrape together between them the funds to keep the media outlet going. Such a model seems to be primarily employed by The Young Turks and its various spin-offs and subsidiaries.



                        With regard to money in politics the people who are seriously interested in fixing it all seem to agree the correct solution is to pass a constitutional amendment stating that congress has the right to pass laws limiting corruption and imposing limits on electoral spending , and thus overruling the relevant SCOTUS cases (Buckley v Valeo, Citizens United, McCutcheon etc). Ideally this would be passed at the federal level as most amendments are. Unfortunately the attempts to do so simply die down party lines with Dems voting for it and Republicans voting against it, as the Republicans are well aware they gain a lot more out of money in politics and corruption than democrats do. With the inability to pass the amendment at the federal level, the sensible method is to do it at the state level, and there are serious attempts underway to do that already and thus far 5 states have signed on (34 are needed to trigger a convention). Historically it has been the case that if the states looked close to calling a convention, the federal politicians would respond to that pressure and pass the amendment themselves even if they had been previously opposed.
                        Last edited by Starlight; 02-09-2019, 03:44 AM.
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          What happened Carp, is that the law was applied selectively to Citizen United and not to Michael Moore's movie company, and you are not willing to apply the same rules to media conglomerates. Which is hypocritical.
                          Again - I am not interested in "what happened." I am interested in what WILL happen. If an existing law is not uniformly applied - then THAT is what should be addressed. You don't solve the problem by throwing open the gates to dark money in politics. And I continue to be amazed that you are defending the very people working to ensure that your voice is heard as little as possible. It just boggles the imagination....
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                            The problem is that what you identify the case as being about is not what the ruling ultimately decided. If it had simply been a more narrow decision concerning the film by Citizens United, such as ruling the timing restrictions were unconstitutional, I doubt the case would have been particularly controversial. But the Supreme Court did a whole lot more than that in their decision, taking what was presented as a fairly narrow question and giving a substantially more expansive answer than was necessary... not unlike what they did in Dred Scott v. Sandford and Roe v. Wade.

                            This has always struck me as a weak argument: "The Founders could not have foreseen..." Sure, there's a number of things they couldn't have foreseen. That's why they put in an amendment process to the constitution. There was stuff that happened within decades of ratification they didn't foresee, hence the 11th Amendment. Indeed, there have been multiple Amendments that were passed specifically to overturn a previous Supreme Court decision.
                            The founders intentionally made the amendment process slow and laborious - for what I hope would be obvious reasons. We don't need to go through that laborious process if the existing constitution can deal with the issue. The 1st amendment's intent is clear: to prevent the government from punishing people for saying things the government did not "approve of." It was never intended to be a weapon by which the wealthy could squelch the voice of the less fortunate by burying them in advertising and misinformation. It was never intended to be a means by which corporations and wealthy individuals could harness "big data" and micro-target their message to get the biggest result from, and to effectively brainwash, the electorate. Citizens United went too far - and opened the floodgates of dark money. Our political system has been buried in that ever since. Billions of dollars are being spent by a relative few to attack anyone, anywhere, at anytime and in anyway and swing the tide of elections to their desires.

                            That is not what our democracy was supposed to be about.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              There's a reason the corporations are listed. They're not private donations.
                              What on earth are you looking at? The opensecret report shows ALL individual donations, and no corporate donations. You're suggesting that because a donor is required to identify their employer - it suddenly makes it a corporate donation?

                              MM - your argument is simply not viable. I don't know why you need to cling to this argument, but it is not a rational one.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                                Right. So let's start there. Once we figure out a good way to handle that, THEN think about what, if anything, to do about "money in politics" more broadly.
                                So what do you suggest?
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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