Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Trump Tax Cut

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

    I realize that you are not going to post your tax return here - nor share it with anyone - but your numbers aren't making any sense to me. Perhaps they are to someone else.
    I'm not sure what your beef is. I'm single, made the same this year as last ($45,000). Over the year over $1,300 less was taken out of my weekly check in taxes. I did not itemize this year, like I did last year, and my refund was $140 dollars less. So I'm up $1,160. Then, because I did not itemize, I did my own tax on Turbo Tax, that cost me $144, last year it cost me $300 - done by a tax professional. So I'm up all the way around.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      I am. I don't recall using "that's not fair" as an objection to any specific claim or a reason for anyone making a change. I noted my mental state when there is an injustice at play. If someone asks me why I think the tax cut needs to be reversed, "because it's not fair," will not be one of my reasons. My reasons will be based in the impact on the tax cut on individuals, the economy, and the federal deficit. "It's not fair" presumes everything is supposed to be "fair" in some simplistic balancing act. It is indeed the call of outrage of a any simple thinker (i.e., a toddler).
      It's okay, I knew you would rationalize it.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        I'm not sure what your beef is. I'm single, made the same this year as last ($45,000). Over the year over $1,300 less was taken out of my weekly check in taxes. I did not itemize this year, like I did last year, and my refund was $140 dollars less. So I'm up $1,160. Then, because I did not itemize, I did my own tax on Turbo Tax, that cost me $144, last year it cost me $300 - done by a tax professional. So I'm up all the way around.
        He's just invoking Nancy "Crumbs" Pelosi. It didn't make any more sense when she said it.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          Fraud: wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
          Con: persuade (someone) to do or believe something, typically by use of a deception.

          I was using the definition of "con" above. Upon reading both definitions, however, I guess I would describe the Trump Tax Cut as both a con and a fraud. Both involve deception. Indeed, perhaps fraud is a better word, given that it implicitly refers to "financial or personal gain." That seems to describe what was done aptly.

          So I withdraw my comment. Either term will do.
          Thank you.


          You're attempting to claim that the data that describes the median effect of the tax cut on Americans is incorrect because you were not at the median?
          what? I claimed I AM at the median. Pretty much middle of the middle class.



          First, you actually haven't shown a 10% reduction, given that you apparently included your raise into the calculation. Second, "would have been lower" is not a universally true statement; it depends on whether you cross any tax brackets, and if there are any impacts on your deductions. Finally, your use of statistics makes me wonder about your math. How are you arriving at 10%? What numbers are you dividing?
          I looked at my taxes owed from last year and my taxes owed from this year.
          The taxes owed this year are approximately 10% lower than the amount owed last year. Even though I made MORE this year so my taxes under the old system would have been higher.


          The fact that you had $2,000 more in taxable income is a function of both your raise and the changes in deductions from last year to this year, so you continue to mix numbers up, making it impossible to know what the tax cut actually did for you. And your use of it in this context suggests that you statement about a 10% reduction in taxes is probably not correct.

          I realize that you are not going to post your tax return here - nor share it with anyone - but your numbers aren't making any sense to me. Perhaps they are to someone else.
          OK let's just cut all the BS.

          Let's look at the tax tables from this year and last year for the same total adjusted taxable income. Let's pick a good middle class number, $35,000

          From last year:
          2017.jpg
          https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/i1040gi--2017.pdf

          From this year:
          2018.jpg
          https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf

          The last column is filing single.

          Last year: $4,788
          This year: $4,013

          A reduction of $775. A 16% reduction in taxes paid.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            He's just invoking Nancy "Crumbs" Pelosi. It didn't make any more sense when she said it.
            Of course to a multi-millionaire like Nancy Pelosi[1] this is nothing but "pathetic crumbs" which is how she dismissively characterized it. Of course this is the same clown who thought high rates of people out of work was a good thing saying it shouldn't be called unemployment but "funemployment"[2] and declaring things like unemployment checks and food stamps are actually better than creating jobs for the economy saying they provide a bigger bang for the buck[3].

            Anywho... anyone else remember how she giddily praised the Obama-era $40 tax cut, calling it a "victory for America"?









            1. According to Wikipedia she's worth $29.35 million but the Center for Responsive Politics (best known for its website OpenSecrets.org) puts it closer to $196 million.

            2.
            "Now you don’t have to do that job that you’ve hated all along. If you want to go out and paint watercolors in Golden Gate Park and try to sell ’em down in the Tenderloin, you can do it. You no longer have to be a prisoner do a job that you don’t like."


            3.
            And that they "creates jobs faster than almost any other initiative you can name" which begs the question if food stamps and unemployment are better than jobs, as she said, why would you want to create jobs at all?

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              He's just invoking Nancy "Crumbs" Pelosi. It didn't make any more sense when she said it.
              Well $1,300 are not crumbs to me...
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Of course to a multi-millionaire like Nancy Pelosi[1] this is nothing but "pathetic crumbs" which is how she dismissively characterized it. Of course this is the same clown who thought high rates of people out of work was a good thing saying it shouldn't be called unemployment but "funemployment"[2] and declaring things like unemployment checks and food stamps are actually better than creating jobs for the economy saying they provide a bigger bang for the buck[3].
                And with the Corporate tax cut my boss was able to hire three part time employees and one full time. With one of the part timers going full time soon. And we are a small company. And we had our best year in the last eight.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  I'm not sure what your beef is. I'm single, made the same this year as last ($45,000). Over the year over $1,300 less was taken out of my weekly check in taxes. I did not itemize this year, like I did last year, and my refund was $140 dollars less. So I'm up $1,160. Then, because I did not itemize, I did my own tax on Turbo Tax, that cost me $144, last year it cost me $300 - done by a tax professional. So I'm up all the way around.
                  Your numbers add up, because you do not have the raise situation that Sparko seems to keep including in his discussion. My "beef" was Sparko conflating a lot of pieces together. Perhaps he'll clarify.

                  Not sure that your tax numbers do anything to change the overall tax situation, however. We still have the majority of the return going to the wealthy, and all of our savings simply translated into a larger debt. So - I'm not particularly pro tax cut - despite the positive impact on my income last year. I tend to look past myself to what the broader impacts are.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Your numbers add up, because you do not have the raise situation that Sparko seems to keep including in his discussion. My "beef" was Sparko conflating a lot of pieces together. Perhaps he'll clarify.

                    Not sure that your tax numbers do anything to change the overall tax situation, however. We still have the majority of the return going to the wealthy, and all of our savings simply translated into a larger debt. So - I'm not particularly pro tax cut - despite the positive impact on my income last year. I tend to look past myself to what the broader impacts are.
                    I did so above.

                    And I see where we are differing. You keep talking about how much income someone has gained because of the tax cut, while I am talking about how much less tax I have paid. Percentage wise, the income gain is not going to be that great compared to your overall income, if I make $100,000 and pay $1000 less in taxes, that is only 1% gain in income. But it might be a 15% reduction in taxes. Because the taxes are a smaller percentage of your income.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Thank you.

                      what? I claimed I AM at the median. Pretty much middle of the middle class.
                      The median of what each class received, Sparko. Apparently (though your numbers are kind of all over the place), you seem to think that because you saw more than 1.x% that your apparent income bracket saw, you're questioning the accuracy of the data? Or did I misunderstand your "perhaps the data is wrong?"

                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      I looked at my taxes owed from last year and my taxes owed from this year.
                      The taxes owed this year are approximately 10% lower than the amount owed last year. Even though I made MORE this year so my taxes under the old system would have been higher.




                      OK let's just cut all the BS.

                      Let's look at the tax tables from this year and last year for the same total adjusted taxable income. Let's pick a good middle class number, $35,000

                      From last year:
                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]35186[/ATTACH]
                      https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/i1040gi--2017.pdf

                      From this year:
                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]35187[/ATTACH]
                      https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf

                      The last column is filing single.

                      Last year: $4,788
                      This year: $4,013

                      A reduction of $775. A 16% reduction in taxes paid.
                      Your attempt to ignore the BS completely ignores all of the changes in exemptions and deductions, Sparko. You're still comparing apples to oranges. The tax revisions changes BOTH the tax tables and what people would end up with as taxable income by changing what they could deduct from their total income. That is why your 16% number is WAY too high.

                      And you also picked out one tax number. The numbers I have been citing are averages across the nation. You can find a decent summary of the impact of the tax cut here.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        He's just invoking Nancy "Crumbs" Pelosi. It didn't make any more sense when she said it.
                        Not even close to anything I have said.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

                          Not sure that your tax numbers do anything to change the overall tax situation, however. We still have the majority of the return going to the wealthy, and all of our savings simply translated into a larger debt. So - I'm not particularly pro tax cut - despite the positive impact on my income last year. I tend to look past myself to what the broader impacts are.
                          The wealthy only got a percent and a half reduction concerning their income tax. The big reduction was with Corporate taxes, which my boss used to hire three part timers and one full timer. And we are a small company. And hopefully the broader impact is a growing economy, we are already taking in record taxes. Though we are still running a deficit.

                          https://www.investors.com/politics/e...nues-deficits/
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            And with the Corporate tax cut my boss was able to hire three part time employees and one full time. With one of the part timers going full time soon. And we are a small company. And we had our best year in the last eight.
                            A few businesses saw these returns - somewhat skewed to smaller businesses. Most did not. Most applied the funds to stock buy backs and other profit gains for owners. About 70% of the money saved as a result of the tax cut went to such programs. Hiring did not skew upwards significantly - nor did wages. Indeed, most of the wage increases went to one-time bonuses, because businesses know that bonuses only hit their bottom line once, not with every pay cycle.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              The median of what each class received, Sparko. Apparently (though your numbers are kind of all over the place), you seem to think that because you saw more than 1.x% that your apparent income bracket saw, you're questioning the accuracy of the data? Or did I misunderstand your "perhaps the data is wrong?"



                              Your attempt to ignore the BS completely ignores all of the changes in exemptions and deductions, Sparko. You're still comparing apples to oranges. The tax revisions changes BOTH the tax tables and what people would end up with as taxable income by changing what they could deduct from their total income. That is why your 16% number is WAY too high.

                              And you also picked out one tax number. The numbers I have been citing are averages across the nation. You can find a decent summary of the impact of the tax cut here.
                              The deductions are even higher this year, they doubled the standard deduction so if anything your total adjusted income (the top number) would probably be LESS this year. If you earn $50,000 and your standard deduction last year brought you to $35K TAI, then this year, it might drop you to $32,000 (just guessing) which would be an even higher percentage reduction in taxes.

                              Every one of your objection results in a higher tax reduction!

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                The wealthy only got a percent and a half reduction concerning their income tax. The big reduction was with Corporate taxes, which my boss used to hire three part timers and one full timer. And we are a small company. And hopefully the broader impact is a growing economy, we are already taking in record taxes. Though we are still running a deficit.

                                https://www.investors.com/politics/e...nues-deficits/
                                Umm.. no. Most of the arguments this article tries to make have been debunked, simply don't hold up under scrutiny, or are flat out assertions with no actual support. There is better data here.

                                And the "record taxes" is smoke and mirrors. We set "record taxes" in most years for the simple reason that the GDP grows in most years, resulting in more revenues. The claim that the economy would not have grown without the tax cut is unsupported. The economy grew at an average 0.5% higher rate (2.83% for first two years of Trump, and 2.33% for Obama's second term). There has been no significant surge. There's no reason to think the economy wouldn't have continued to grow at the average rate of the previous three years without the tax cut.

                                Sorry, Seer - but the tax cut was a boon to the wealthy, with only nominal gains to the lower income tiers. Most Americans know this, and recognize the disparity and the cost to them of that cut - which is why most Americans did not see "the economy" as a particularly election-worthy topic in 2018 - not even Republicans.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                148 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                397 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                113 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                197 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                367 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X