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  • #61
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    A few businesses saw these returns - somewhat skewed to smaller businesses. Most did not. Most applied the funds to stock buy backs and other profit gains for owners. About 70% of the money saved as a result of the tax cut went to such programs. Hiring did not skew upwards significantly - nor did wages. Indeed, most of the wage increases went to one-time bonuses, because businesses know that bonuses only hit their bottom line once, not with every pay cycle.
    I don't know what you mean, we are a small business, as are my friends who are contractors. Nothing skewed about that. And I don't know what you mean by wages:

    Wages Rise at Fastest Rate in Nearly a Decade as Hiring Jumps: https://www.wsj.com/articles/wages-r...ber-1541161920

    And I don't know where you are getting that 70% number (just large Corporations?) the vast majority of people employed in this country are employed by small business.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      The deductions are even higher this year, they doubled the standard deduction so if anything your total adjusted income (the top number) would probably be LESS this year. If you earn $50,000 and your standard deduction last year brought you to $35K TAI, then this year, it might drop you to $32,000 (just guessing) which would be an even higher percentage reduction in taxes.

      Every one of your objection results in a higher tax reduction!
      Again - you're picking and choosing. They doubled the standard deduction, but there were corresponding negative changes in dependent deductions, moving deductions, home equity loan interest deductions, personal exemptions, state and local taxes, itemized deductions, casualty and theft losses, and alimony payments (the latter still to take effect). If you didn't happen to have any of those, you saw a disproportionately large boost in your tax savings. On average, most people were impacted by many of those, resulting in the average numbers I outlined. And the effect was most seriously felt in blue states, which tend to have a higher state tax base. As one southern Republican Senator was herd to say (and I'm paraphrasing it), "we really put it to those liberal Yankees with this one!"

      It was at least an honest description.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        I don't know what you mean, we are a small business, as are my friends who are contractors. Nothing skewed about that. And I don't know what you mean by wages:

        Wages Rise at Fastest Rate in Nearly a Decade as Hiring Jumps: https://www.wsj.com/articles/wages-r...ber-1541161920
        So read carefully. "Fastest rate in a decade" is basically "since the start of the recession." We expected to see salaries start to climb naturally as unemployment drops. So, again, the claim that this was due to the tax cut is simply unsustainable. And the data shows that 70% of the tax cut went to buy backs and other owner-profit enhancing gimmicks, and 30% went to salaries, hiring, and capital improvements. Since capital improvements also improve the value of the company, it means less than a quarter of the savings in taxes went to what the taxes were toouted as being about: boosting the economy and increasing jobs and salaries.

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        And I don't know where you are getting that 70% number (just large Corporations?) the vast majority of people employed in this country are employed by small business.
        I'm not re-finding the article, so I can't answer this question. The link is in one of my previous posts on this topic. If I come across it again, I'l link it again.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          Umm.. no. Most of the arguments this article tries to make have been debunked, simply don't hold up under scrutiny, or are flat out assertions with no actual support. There is better data here.

          And the "record taxes" is smoke and mirrors. We set "record taxes" in most years for the simple reason that the GDP grows in most years, resulting in more revenues. The claim that the economy would not have grown without the tax cut is unsupported. The economy grew at an average 0.5% higher rate (2.83% for first two years of Trump, and 2.33% for Obama's second term). There has been no significant surge. There's no reason to think the economy wouldn't have continued to grow at the average rate of the previous three years without the tax cut.

          Sorry, Seer - but the tax cut was a boon to the wealthy, with only nominal gains to the lower income tiers. Most Americans know this, and recognize the disparity and the cost to them of that cut - which is why most Americans did not see "the economy" as a particularly election-worthy topic in 2018 - not even Republicans.
          Oh Stop, it was worse under Obama:

          The years 2008 through 2015 should be known as the Great Fleecing.

          During that time, the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world occurred. Some $4.5 trillion was given to Wall Street banks through its Quantitative Easing program, with the American people picking up the IOU.

          “If liberals are angry about inequality, they should look no further than President Obama.”

          This is the primary reason the US economy has not been able to recovery from the bank implosion of 2008.

          Surely if you inject $4.5 trillion into the economy, you will get economic growth. You will get a 4% to 5% increase in Gross Domestic Product for at least a year or two.

          Yet the Obama administration is the first two-term presidency that has not posted a 3% GDP growth on an annualized basis for 8 years. Even Franklin Delano Roosevelt posted 3% growth year during the Great Depression.

          That’s because the $4.5 trillion was not given to any infrastructure program — it was given to banks, under the misguided notion that they needed the money to remain solvent. The banks promptly invested this money, which kept the stock market humming, but did nothing for jobs, wages or the GDP.

          https://nypost.com/2016/01/17/occupy...the-1-percent/


          https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/02...ls-are-higher/
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

            I'm not re-finding the article, so I can't answer this question. The link is in one of my previous posts on this topic. If I come across it again, I'l link it again.
            Please do...
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Oh Stop, it was worse under Obama:
              I'm not really interested in whataboutism. What happened under Obama was equally inappropriate when it came to encouraging wealth disparity. It is not a defense of the current tax cut.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                Again - you're picking and choosing. They doubled the standard deduction, but there were corresponding negative changes in dependent deductions, moving deductions, home equity loan interest deductions, personal exemptions, state and local taxes, itemized deductions, casualty and theft losses, and alimony payments (the latter still to take effect). If you didn't happen to have any of those, you saw a disproportionately large boost in your tax savings. On average, most people were impacted by many of those, resulting in the average numbers I outlined. And the effect was most seriously felt in blue states, which tend to have a higher state tax base. As one southern Republican Senator was herd to say (and I'm paraphrasing it), "we really put it to those liberal Yankees with this one!"

                It was at least an honest description.
                Carp, you are playing games to keep from admitting the facts. ALL things remaining the same, the person would pay LESS taxes this year than last. Forget moving, home equity, blah blah blah. Compare a hypothetical person making $50K both years, and using the standard deduction both years, and not moving or getting married or having children or being hit by a hurricane or whatever other nonsense you want to imagine to change the taxes, and he would pay less this year than last.

                Go fill out the forms and see for yourself.

                My comparison was fair. I took the same adjusted income for both years and showed that the taxes was about 16% less for $35,000. And if anything since they doubled the standard deduction this year, it would be an even less total adjusted income this year for the same salary. But like you say, that's gravy.

                And in case you missed my earlier post, the difference in percentages that you were talking about and what I am talking about is because you kept talking about percentage gain in INCOME and I am talking about percentage reduction in taxes. If you gain $1000 in income from the tax break, that might indeed only be a 1% increase in income if you are making $100,000/year. But it might be a 10% reduction in taxes if you are paying $10,000 in taxes last year and $9,000 this year.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  I'm not really interested in whataboutism. What happened under Obama was equally inappropriate when it came to encouraging wealth disparity. It is not a defense of the current tax cut.
                  But taxation is not the problem, spending is. I am all for people (rich or poor), getting to keep more of their own money. If the Government followed Constitutionally mandated spending we would not be in this hole, nor would we have half the lobbyists we have today.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    I'm not really interested in whataboutism.
                    Yeah. You just want to be a first class hypocrite. Congrats. You succeeded.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Come on, guys, it's very simple: you shouldn't be excited about lower taxes because Trump.

                      Q.E.D.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        ALL things remaining the same, the person would pay LESS taxes this year than last. Forget moving, home equity, blah blah blah. Compare a hypothetical person making $50K both years, and using the standard deduction both years, and not moving or getting married or having children or being hit by a hurricane or whatever other nonsense you want to imagine to change the taxes, and he would pay less this year than last.

                        Go fill out the forms and see for yourself.
                        I never said otherwise.

                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        My comparison was fair. I took the same adjusted income for both years and showed that the taxes was about 16% less for $35,000. And if anything since they doubled the standard deduction this year, it would be an even less total adjusted income this year for the same salary. But like you say, that's gravy.
                        And your case is a statistical anomaly - which is my point. The numbers suggest that the average low-income person will see about a 0.4% net increase in after tax income. It scales from there to 2.9% for the most wealthy. So the average American making $14K can expect $56 more in their after-tax income (about a dollar per week). the average American making $45K can expect $540 more in their after-tax income (about $1.5 per day). On the other hand, average American making $500,000 can expect an increase of $10,150 in after-tax income. At $1M in income the amount increases to over $20,000. The wealthy are not only getting more as a number - they are getting more as a percentage as well. So the claim "the wealthy will not benefit" was a flat-out lie. They not only benefit - they benefit more than anyone else.

                        Now, put that against the wealth disparity in the country, and you have a disproportionately huge percentage of the tax cut going to the top 1%, with the lower tax brackets splitting the rest. As I have said, multiple times, the lower classes are being conned - and most of the Republicans that are being conned are doing what you are doing: smiling and defending it.

                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        And in case you missed my earlier post, the difference in percentages that you were talking about and what I am talking about is because you kept talking about percentage gain in INCOME and I am talking about percentage reduction in taxes. If you gain $1000 in income from the tax break, that might indeed only be a 1% increase in income if you are making $100,000/year. But it might be a 10% reduction in taxes if you are paying $10,000 in taxes last year and $9,000 this year.
                        Yes, I finally picked up on that shift. It changes the numbers somewhat, but not the overall point of my post: the reduction in taxes is percentage-wise more significant for the wealthiest - by a lot. Meanwhile, the tax cut is not paying for itself, and we have 10-digit deficits in a healthy economy. The fiscal responsibility of the Republicans in Congress is MIA.

                        Of course, as soon as the Democrats take power, they will suddenly forget fiscal responsibility too. As I have said - interest in fiscal responsibility seems to be limited to the party NOT in power.
                        Last edited by carpedm9587; 02-18-2019, 05:44 PM.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          But taxation is not the problem, spending is.
                          BOTH are. A deficit results when spending exceeds revenue. You can achieve that by increasing spending or decreasing revenues. The Republicans in Congress and Trump did both.

                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          I am all for people (rich or poor), getting to keep more of their own money. If the Government followed Constitutionally mandated spending we would not be in this hole, nor would we have half the lobbyists we have today.
                          Constitutionally mandated spending?

                          I agree that lobbyists are out of control. In general, big money in politics is out of control. But then again - you defend that, so I'm not sure you can raise an objection now and be consistent.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Come on, guys, it's very simple: you shouldn't be excited about lower taxes because Trump.

                            Q.E.D.
                            Trump being the originator has little/nothing to do with it. Fiscal responsibility does.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              .
                              I've been getting into the habit of deleting personal attacks/observations from posts, along with condescending emojis, so I can simply focus on the arguments being put forward.

                              Unfortunately, when I did that with your post - there wasn't anything left. Sorry about that!
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Constitutionally mandated spending?
                                Right, like the Government only doing what the Constitution requires. Get rid of departments that have nothing to do with those requirements. Getting rid of Agriculture, Commerce, Education, Energy, Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, Interior, Labor...would be a good start.

                                I agree that lobbyists are out of control. In general, big money in politics is out of control. But then again - you defend that, so I'm not sure you can raise an objection now and be consistent.
                                No Carp, in case it hasn't dawned you, the reason why lobbyists are out of control is because the federal Government has gotten so big. Reaching into most aspects of life. If they didn't have such far reaching power there would be less to lobby for.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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