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Trump Tax derail - Abortion

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  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Well, when you post so much that is wrong, it needs to be hacked up and addressed. Not my fault you are so horribly wrong.

    Well, considering I am the one who first mentioned the term "individual", I'm the one that gets to determine its usage. When you change the meaning and build a case off of it, that's nothing but a strawman. And for the last time, the zygote is AN individual member of our species. You, again, shifted the terminology to the individual . And you ran with it. Again, a strawman.

    That is a meaningless phrase. There is no such biological description as "the complete definition of the individual". Again, get your terms right.
    The human person which has rights and a life and value in the eyes of God is not defined in purely biological terms BTC.

    And the fact is that phrase has meaning, and you know exactly what it means. You just don't want to acknowledge it. Which is why you and I are done.

    The bottom line BTC, is you don't like what I'm saying, and you'll play whatever world games you can to avoid having to deal with the actual content of what I've been saying.

    So there is no point in continuing. I will not waste my time in this sort of obstinate word game play.

    One can't have a rational discussion when the other side is not interested in having one. If nothing else, that is an absolute truth I have learned debating on TWEB.



    Jim
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      The human person which has rights and a life and value in the eyes of God is not defined in purely biological terms BTC.

      And the fact is that phrase has meaning, and you know exactly what it means. You just don't want to acknowledge it. Which is why you and I are done.

      The bottom line BTC, is you don't like what I'm saying, and you'll play whatever world games you can to avoid having to deal with the actual content of what I've been saying.

      So there is no point in continuing. I will not waste my time in this sort of obstinate word game play.

      One can't have a rational discussion when the other side is not interested in having one. If nothing else, that is an absolute truth I have learned debating on TWEB.



      Jim
      Wow. What a prig you are. You change MY argument, and then bitch like a little girl when I call you on it. And then you have the nerve to tell me how and what arguments I am allowed to make... wow...
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • Did God love you any less when you were a zygote, Jim?

        Comment


        • Reading through this thread I find it completely ridiculous that a professing Christian would seriously claim that a physical brain is a pre-requisite for the existence of a human mind.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Did God love you any less when you were a zygote, Jim?
            I don't remember being a zygote. Heck, I don't remember not being married! I think I was born married!


            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              OK what other reasons do you have that we should not abort a fetus before it is a "person", other than it will become a person or religious reasons?
              Are those reason not good enough for you Sparko? I said these are sufficient reasons. And they are. They are not the only reasons, but they may be the most significant. Another reason would be that the mother who has an abortion often suffers a great deal of guilt over the child that never was.

              For some reason this isn't good enough for you. You would rather I not acknowledge the clear difference between a single cell that an become a human being and the human being itself. But I'm not going to do that no matter how much you and BTC try to berate me into confessing what simply is not true.

              And for the record. The scriptures in Exodus 21:22 per what was the original text actually do make a distinction between the formed and unformed child, whether you wish to accept that reality or not.

              We can live in our own reality we imagine, or we can deal with the real world. I choose the latter.


              Jim
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Are those reason not good enough for you Sparko? I said these are sufficient reasons. And they are. They are not the only reasons, but they may be the most significant. Another reason would be that the mother who has an abortion often suffers a great deal of guilt over the child that never was.

                For some reason this isn't good enough for you. You would rather I not acknowledge the clear difference between a single cell that an become a human being and the human being itself. But I'm not going to do that no matter how much you and BTC try to berate me into confessing what simply is not true.

                And for the record. The scriptures in Exodus 21:22 per what was the original text actually do make a distinction between the formed and unformed child, whether you wish to accept that reality or not.

                We can live in our own reality we imagine, or we can deal with the real world. I choose the latter.


                Jim

                So when I say that your only reason that you oppose abortion (other than religion) is that the fetus is a potential person, you got upset, but when I ask you to clarify, you go "Is that not reason enough?"
                YOU were the one who said it wasn't your only reason like I claimed it was. So you should be happy to supply those reasons to show me wrong.

                And many mothers who have abortions don't have guilt but celebrate it. But ok let's add that to the list. That hardly changes what I said into being a misrepresentation of your position.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  So when I say that your only reason that you oppose abortion (other than religion) is that the fetus is a potential person, you got upset, but when I ask you to clarify, you go "Is that not reason enough?"

                  Exactly - you distorted my words to try to trivialize them - as if the reason I gave wasn't good enough.

                  YOU were the one who said it wasn't your only reason like I claimed it was. So you should be happy to supply those reasons to show me wrong.
                  Actually - no. you've distorted and mocked everything I've said. I don't owe you squat. And I'm smart enough to know that any argument I use will be distorted and twisted. Eventually I've made my case with those reading that have some semblance of objectivity and it is no longer important that I endure that sort of thing any further.


                  And many mothers who have abortions don't have guilt but celebrate it. But ok let's add that to the list. That hardly changes what I said into being a misrepresentation of your position.
                  The number or significance of whatever other reasons may exist are irrelevant. You twisted my words, changed their character and meaning. And further acted as if the sufficient reason I gave was somehow insignificant or trivial!

                  Now you would mock me because you would portray any other reason I would give as also insignificant. How hypocritical is that? You portray the sufficient reason given as insignificant, and then justify distorting my words by saying the other reasons I give are also insignificant.

                  Honesty, integrity, require you do not distort my words to make your case. Will you choose to be honest and debate with integrity or not?



                  Jim
                  Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-20-2019, 12:36 PM.
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    Exactly - you distorted my words to try to trivialize them - as if the reason I gave wasn't good enough.
                    Huh? How do you get that?

                    Shame on you. And you deserve no more of a response than the one I gave.
                    Jim I think you have gone off the deep end or something. You accused me of misrepresenting you by saying "only" -- first it was just a figure of speech, second, once you objected, I asked you OK so what are these other reasons and you came back and said "Isn't that good enough?" meaning if it WERE the only reason then that should be fine, making me wonder why you were upset that I said it was "only" in the first place! Now you accuse me of "trivializing" your reasons?

                    smh.





                    Actually - no. You are absurd, ridiculous, accusatory, you've distorted and mocked everything I've said. I don't owe you squat. And personally, when people behave in an argument like and BTC, I think a just response is just to walk away leave you in your ignorance.
                    You need to take a few deep breaths. I haven't mocked you at all. I have tried to get you to understand that your position isn't scientific but philosophical and political (e.g. "person")



                    The number or significance of whatever other reasons may exist are irrelevant. You twisted my words, changed their character and meaning. And further acted as if the sufficient reason I gave was somehow insignificant or trivial! All of that is wrong and you know it.

                    Now you would mock me because you would portray any other reason I would give as also insignificant. How hypocritical is that? You portray the sufficient reason given as insignificant, and then justify distorting my words by saying the other reasons I give are also insignificant.

                    Honesty, integrity, require you do not distort my words to make your case. Will you choose to be honest and debate with integrity or not?



                    Jim
                    You are getting paranoid Jim. I haven't twisted your words. I haven't mocked you. I was trying to see how, if your reasoning that it is a potential human being is good enough to be a reason not to abort, that you don't think the same thing of an unfertilized egg which is also a potential human being. What makes the zygote more valuable than the unfertilized egg?

                    I was trying to get you to see that the reason is that the zygote is more than just part of the mother's body like the egg is, it is a distinct human organism.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Huh? How do you get that?
                      Uh huh ... right. Don't look in mirrors often do you?


                      It is odd how such a heated argument can appear over a subtle distinction. You have assumed, because you haven't listened or been willing to listen, that somehow recognizing that the embryonic phase encompases the creation of the human being, and that during much of it the entire human, especially the brain, does not yet exist and thus the human being is not quite all there, somehow undermines your case against abortion. And you will not hear any such talk. You have not been able one time to respond in this discussion rationally to what I've actually said. To the point many times you have changed my words into something else, or interpreted them to mean something other than what I clearly stated. All because I think that such a difference marks a difference between killing a human and murdering a human. Manslaugher vs premeditated murder. That is the distinction I kept trying to make but could never quite get to. That is the distinction you will not have.

                      Manslaughter is still wrong. It still exacts a price. It still is illegal. But just as in exodus, the accidental killing of the unformed fetus doesn't rise to life for a life. It is a real difference, but it doesn't make the embyro 'just tissue'. And it doesn't make abortion 'ok'

                      It is all so bizarre.



                      Jim
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        Uh huh ... right. Don't look in mirrors often do you?


                        It is odd how such a heated argument can appear over a subtle distinction. You have assumed, because you haven't listened or been willing to listen, that somehow recognizing that the embryonic phase encompases the creation of the human being, and that during much of it the entire human, especially the brain, does not yet exist and thus the human being is not quite all there, somehow undermines your case against abortion. And you will not hear any such talk. You have not been able one time to respond in this discussion rationally to what I've actually said. To the point many times you have changed my words into something else, or interpreted them to mean something other than what I clearly stated. All because I think that such a difference marks a difference between killing a human and murdering a human. Manslaugher vs premeditated murder. That is the distinction I kept trying to make but could never quite get to. That is the distinction you will not have.

                        Manslaughter is still wrong. It still exacts a price. It still is illegal. But just as in exodus, the accidental killing of the unformed fetus doesn't rise to life for a life. It is a real difference, but it doesn't make the embyro 'just tissue'. And it doesn't make abortion 'ok'

                        It is all so bizarre.



                        Jim
                        If I have changed your words it is not a debate tactic, it means I did not understand what you were arguing, Jim. You have never mentioned "manslaughter" vs "murder" before in our conversations, just person vs non person.

                        This is something new to me. So you think killing a zygote is manslaughter but killing a fetus with a brain is murder?

                        I have no problem with that. Manslaughter is still the wrongful killing of a human being.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post


                          You are getting paranoid Jim. I haven't twisted your words. I haven't mocked you.
                          You are clueless about your own actions and words.

                          But I certainly am NOT going to go digging to prove my point.

                          We have example gratis in the last few posts. You changed my words to mean what they did not mean. I gave both quotes. Anyone with half a brain can see they are changed in a way that is derogatory AND in a way that implies something I did not say.

                          If you can't see that, then you are blind.

                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • Isn't everybody pretty much saying the same things by now?

                              Might it be a good idea to close this thread?
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                If I have changed your words it is not a debate tactic, it means I did not understand what you were arguing, Jim. You have never mentioned "manslaughter" vs "murder" before in our conversations, just person vs non person.

                                This is something new to me. So you think killing a zygote is manslaughter but killing a fetus with a brain is murder?

                                I have no problem with that. Manslaughter is still the wrongful killing of a human being.
                                That is where I was headed, but I could never get there because every time I said anything at all oriented around trying to build that case, it was treated like the devils own turd.

                                Such is life.


                                Jim
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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