Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Trump Tax derail - Abortion

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
    If the convict IS a human being, no justification for the death penalty is adequate.
    Here's the thing, Roy. The convict chose to do wrong. The unborn has no choice in anything.
    Per Sparko's post,* that's an inadequate justification.

    *It's inadequate for other reasons too, but that'd be a rabbit-trail
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
      Per Sparko's post,* that's an inadequate justification.

      *It's inadequate for other reasons too, but that'd be a rabbit-trail
      Did the convict choose to do wrong?

      Did the unborn choose to be conceived?

      Who is responsible?


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Roy View Post
        Yes, no (it's distinct, but not separate), maybe.
        Bad word choice on my part. I meant "distinct"

        I see Jim correctly describing the development stages of the human zygote/morula/blastocyst/embryo/foetus, and I see everyone else (i) making errors, and (ii) assuming he is using those descriptions to justify abortion.

        I'm entirely sympathetic with Jim here.
        Why am I not surprised?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Roy View Post
          If the convict IS a human being, no justification for the death penalty is adequate.
          A fetus is innocent. A convict is not. And the fetus did not get a fair trial.

          I don't support the death penalty except in rare circumstances. But in those circumstances, the heinous nature of the crimes demands more than just sitting in a prison. And the death penalty is punishment. Abortion is convenience.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            If the convict IS a human being, no justification for the death penalty is adequate.
            A fetus is innocent. A convict is not. And the fetus did not get a fair trial.
            Those are justifications, and hence inadequate according to your own argument.*

            *Also convicts may be innocent and may not have had a fair trial. But that's another unnecessary rabbit-trail.
            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              Did the convict choose to do wrong?

              Did the unborn choose to be conceived?

              Who is responsible?
              Maybe; no; insufficient clarity.

              Is the convict a human being?
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                Those are justifications, and hence inadequate according to your own argument.*

                *Also convicts may be innocent and may not have had a fair trial. But that's another unnecessary rabbit-trail.
                No that was your argument.

                *and because they might be innocent is why I am mostly against the death penalty.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  It helps to read articles before you cite them:
                  And it helps to actually read what you didn't bold...

                  Epigenetic markers vary widely from one person to another, but identical twins were still considered genetically identical because epigenetics influence only the expression of a gene and not the underlying sequence of the gene itself.

                  “When we started this study, people were expecting that only epigenetics would differ greatly between twins,” said Jan Dumanski, a professor of genetics at the University of Alabama at Birmingham and an author of the study. [b]“But what we found are changes on the genetic level, the DNA sequence itself.”

                  The specific changes that Dr. Dumanski and his colleagues identified are known as copy number variations...


                  The sequences were different.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    I see Jim correctly describing the development stages of the human zygote/morula/blastocyst/embryo/foetus, and I see everyone else (i) making errors, and (ii) assuming he is using those descriptions to justify abortion.

                    I'm entirely sympathetic with Jim here.
                    I'm the one who described the stages of the human growth and development cycle. Jim was trying to artificially separate them based on arbitrary criteria of "functioning brain". He's wrong to do so. The development and refining of brain function is not what makes the human organism a human being.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      If the convict IS a human being, no justification for the death penalty is adequate.
                      Wholly irrelevant to this discussion.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        And it helps to actually read what you didn't bold...

                        Epigenetic markers vary widely from one person to another, but identical twins were still considered genetically identical because epigenetics influence only the expression of a gene and not the underlying sequence of the gene itself.

                        “When we started this study, people were expecting that only epigenetics would differ greatly between twins,” said Jan Dumanski, a professor of genetics at the University of Alabama at Birmingham and an author of the study. [b]“But what we found are changes on the genetic level, the DNA sequence itself.”

                        The specific changes that Dr. Dumanski and his colleagues identified are known as copy number variations...


                        The sequences were different.
                        Yes, I know. I read and understood the article. But you clearly didn't, because you claimed the DNA was different because of epigenetic changes, while the article clearly states that epigenetics doesn't change the DNA sequence.

                        Will you now admit you were wrong?
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Wholly irrelevant to this discussion.
                          1) It isn't, it's a corollary of Sparko's posted argument.
                          2) So what? This is a derail thread. Everything here is irrelevant to the original discussion.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            Yes, I know. I read and understood the article. But you clearly didn't, because you claimed the DNA was different because of epigenetic changes, while the article clearly states that epigenetics doesn't change the DNA sequence.

                            Will you now admit you were wrong?
                            Yep. My statement on the article was not worded correctly, but the original claim made by Jim was still wrong. He said:

                            Originally posted by oxmix
                            they are all different individuals with the same DNA.
                            As the article astutely says...

                            THE BOTTOM LINE
                            Identical twins apparently do not have identical DNA.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              Yep. My statement on the article was not worded correctly,...
                              ...but the original claim made by Jim was still wrong.
                              That doesn't excuse you.
                              THE BOTTOM LINE
                              Identical twins apparently do not have identical DNA.
                              That actually surprised me, for which I'm grateful.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                Yep. My statement on the article was not worded correctly, but the original claim made by Jim was still wrong. He said:



                                As the article astutely says...

                                THE BOTTOM LINE
                                Identical twins apparently do not have identical DNA.
                                And as the article also says:

                                Source: article

                                The specific changes that Dr. Dumanski and his colleagues identified are known as copy number variations, in which a gene exists in multiple copies, or a set of coding letters in DNA is missing. Not known, however, is whether these changes in identical twins occur at the embryonic level, as the twins age or both.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                While this makes you technically correct, it doesn't change my argument. both twins originate from the same zygote. the changes that occur occur after fertilization and are part of the environment in which they form. Especially if the changes are not embryonic, but due to aging. The twins live in different environments, the errors that occur in replicating the DNA are random and will not be the same individual to individual, even if they begin with identical DNA. And in fact, if you understand my argument, you would recognize this element only amplifies it, not diminishes it.

                                What I am curious about is whether similar differences exist in the DNA of different cells in our own bodies (or more critically, in cells from our younger years), e.g. across the cells of a single individual. In which case my argument would need to be modifed to say, DNA no more different that that found across different cells in a single individuals body.

                                Given that DNA changes as we age due to envrionmental factors, yet we remain the same individual, I don't see how the argument I was making is affected by this technical correction to my statement as to the precise content of the DNA itself. they are still two (or more) individuals originating from the same zygote (which most certainly had only one copy of the DNA from which to generate both individuals) Who they became in that process was not fully defined by that DNA.


                                Jim
                                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-19-2019, 09:53 AM.
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by CivilDiscourse, Today, 09:58 AM
                                5 responses
                                21 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by little_monkey, 03-27-2024, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                197 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                422 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                114 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                198 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Working...
                                X