Originally posted by oxmixmudd
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Trump Tax derail - Abortion
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That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostIt is a self-contained and self-directing organism of our species that has a small percentage chance of splitting into 2 separate self-contained and self-directing organisms. But that split does not eliminate the original zygote's status as a self-contained and self-directing organism of our species. It is an individual, until it becomes multiple individuals.
Who that zygote can become can't be determined from the zygote alone, because there is more to come - gestation.
The zygote has the potential to become an individual. It is not yet an individual.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostYou can't avoid the implication it is not an individual until at least a significant portion of gestation has completed.
Twins are completely different people yet they are the same DNA and originate from the same DNA.
The potential to create an individual does not define who that individual will be.
Different environments can change the outcome is what Twins show us. Triplets, Quartets. now we have 3, or 4. Even if they are identical, they are all different individuals with the same DNA.
Who that zygote can become can't be determined from the zygote alone, because there is more to come - gestation.
The zygote has the potential to become an individual. It is not yet an individual.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWhen I was a Christian I took the view that if indeed "a soul" was something that existed in and of itself that created inside of / put inside of humans, then God would decide a sensible time to do that based on his omniscience and general competence. Since over half of conceived embryos die naturally and do not survive to term, it would seem a bit silly for God to put souls into them at conception, and it would seem more sensible for him to wait until they had survived the part where they were likely to die. Depending on his level of foreknowledge (open theism etc) he may know exactly whether a fetus would survive to term and so presumably wouldn't bother to put a soul into a fetus that was going to die pre-birth. Alternatively he could simply recycle the soul of a fetus that didn't get a chance at life back into a new fetus, until it got to live a length of life he deemed acceptable.
So as a Christian I always found it difficult to care at all about the abortion issue, because I couldn't see any reason to think God didn't have the issue well in hand, and the Bible doesn't place any emphasis on anti-abortion views to the extent that it even mentions the subject at all.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThe zygote is not an individual, yet. Proof? One word:
Twins
Jim
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostYou can't avoid the implication it is not an individual until at least a significant portion of gestation has completed. Twins are completely different people yet they are the same DNA and originate from the same DNA. The potential to create an individual does not define who that individual will be. Different environments can change the outcome is what Twins show us. Triplets, Quartets. now we have 3, or 4. Even if they are identical, they are all different individuals with the same DNA.
Who that zygote can become can't be determined from the zygote alone, because there is more to come - gestation.
The zygote has the potential to become an individual. It is not yet an individual.
Jim
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThe zygote is not an individual, yet. Proof? One word:
Twins
Jim
By that logic, cloning had elimated individuals."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostA zygote can't be twins. It takes at least two cells to split into twins. A zygote is a single fertilized cell. A twin can split at the two cell stage or later, at which point it becomes two distinct individuals. So a zygote is still always an individual human being. And at no stage after fertilization are any of the cells part of the mother or father. They are a distinct individual human being from either.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostBy that logic, cloning had elimated individuals.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postwhat definition of "individual" are you using?
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostBTC is saying the zygote is the embodiment of the final baby, that the zygote is for all practical purposes the same as the final baby.
Clearly , it is not, as it can produce >1 baby. And those two babies are NOT identical in every way. They are individuals plural.
So the zygote is a potential human being, but not a human being yet.
And in fact, it can - under the right circumstances - produce more than 1 human being, which is why clearly more than just the zygote is required to determine it's final product, which is why one can't say it IS the individual.
More than the zygote is required to create the baby, and variations along the way can and will produce different babies.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNo silly, cloning creates multiple zygotes which then can create multiple individuals."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterrorYou can be cloned right now.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostBut that clone will not be me"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNo - it is not. It is a potential human or humans. If it was 'an individual human being' as it was, it could not then become and direct the formation of two DIFFERENT human beings. It can't be 'an individual' but 'not an individual' at the same time Sparko. Why the obstinance - it's a fairly obvious conclusion?
Jim
At the moment of conception, the organism is not potential human life, it is ACTUAL human life.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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