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Trump Tax derail - Abortion

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    "Potential human" ... you claim to be opposed to abortion but use the language favored by pro-abortionists.

    At the moment of conception, the organism is not potential human life, it is ACTUAL human life.
    I 'claim' to be. This is the line Jorge uses. I 'claim' to be a Christian but I accept life evolved.

    Yes - it is human life. And as such it is precious and a thing to be valued and protected, with the potential to be a beautiful little baby. But it is not a human being yet.

    I AM opposed to abortion, period. It is not merely a claim. I have worked over the years to encourage actions and organizations that reach out to unwed mothers and encourage them to adopt, not abort. Your aspersion here is nothing but between the lines whisper and gossip.

    But I am not opposed to abortion because I think the zygote is the same thing as the baby about to be born. That is an unnecessary and false claim. And anyone with half a brain can see it is not true. So by making that claim, you undermine the case against abortion itself by arguing against it from a position of ignorance.


    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-13-2019, 05:18 PM.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
      And identical twins are not the same people either, so there’s your answer.
      You are totally out in the weeds pix, and I have no idea what you think you are arguing against, but it clearly isn't anything I've actually said.


      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        You are totally out in the weeds pix, and I have no idea what you think you are arguing against, but it clearly isn't anything I've actually said.
        Are you not saying that zygotes splitting and forming identical twins somehow invalidates them being individuals? Yes or no?
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          In most all cases, yes. Identical twins is an exception to the 1 to 1 ratio, but increasing the second number does not decrease the first. YOU continue to claim that 0 "becomes" 1 or 2 or 3, etc.
          You clearly have no clue what my argument is either.

          Try reading real slow here Bill. Look at each word. See if you can get the difference. A zygote is the fertilized egg. It can produce a unique individual, but it is not yet a unique individual. There are many things that happen during the gestation perioed that affect the development of that baby, and those things can determine physical characteristics, mental capacity and personality. In the zygote are MANY potential individuals, only one of which will be realized. But it does not yet have human form, it cannot think or feel, it has no heart, no blood, no brain, no arms, no legs. Only the raw materials and instructions that will allow the development of the same. It is human life, but it is not a human being. Yet.


          Again, it still doesn't change the fact that the single cell zygote is a fully contained member of our species. That sometimes, it can split into more than one is irrelevant to the original point. It's a unique human life that will NEVER start as 0.
          No - it is not a member of our species. It is the first step in creating another member of our species.


          That is biological ignorance. Nothing more than a sperm and egg uniting is required to make a baby. That more than one can be produced is immaterial to that fact.
          There is a LOT more required than the uniting of a sperm and an egg to make a baby. If you are unaware of that fact, then it is not I that is expressing biological ignorance.

          Jim
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            Yes - it is human life. And as such it is precious and a thing to be valued and protected, with the potential to be a beautiful little baby. But it is not a human being yet.
            This is another classic pro-abortion argument.

            I'll take your word for it that you're opposed to abortion, but as long as you use the other side's language and the other side's reasoning, you're going to lose that debate every single time.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              Try reading real slow here Bill. Look at each word. See if you can get the difference. A zygote is the fertilized egg. It can produce a unique individual, but it is not yet a unique individual. There are many things that happen during the gestation perioed that affect the development of that baby, and those things can determine physical characteristics, mental capacity and personality. In the zygote are MANY potential individuals, only one of which will be realized. But it does not yet have human form, it cannot think or feel, it has no heart, no blood, no brain, no arms, no legs. Only the raw materials and instructions that will allow the development of the same. It is human life, but it is not a human being. Yet.
              More silly rationalizations and assertions. A zygote is a stage of human development just like any other stage. We could set just about any random criteria to draw lines in the sand to determine human life and assert anyone not meeting those criteria can be killed at will since they are not really people. How well has that worked, in the past?
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                More silly rationalizations and assertions. A zygote is a stage of human development just like any other stage. We could set just about any random criteria to draw lines in the sand to determine human life and assert anyone not meeting those criteria can be killed at will since they are not really people. How well has that worked, in the past?

                Continually wondering off in the weeds. Do you think, or do you just write what you feel in the moment?

                I'm not advocating any of your implications pix. I am against abortion. I am against euthanasia, I am against any system that tries to put different value on human life based on the capabilities, mental or physical, of that human being. I know you'd really, really like to paint me as somehow advocating some evil since we disagree in this, but that simply is not reality.

                Jim
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  This is another classic pro-abortion argument.

                  I'll take your word for it that you're opposed to abortion, but as long as you use the other side's language and the other side's reasoning, you're going to lose that debate every single time.
                  I haven't lost any debate. You guys aren't debating. You're just throwing temper tantrums because I don't think exactly like you. I've given you reasons for my thinking. All you've done is call me names and ranted about me not saying the 'right' things.


                  Jim
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    Continually wondering off in the weeds. Do you think, or do you just write what you feel in the moment?
                    Not at all, you just refuse to apply your own logic to everything else and only want it to apply to special situations and not across the board. A zygote is a stage of human development and deserves protections as much as any other stage does. Prove me wrong because we both know you can’t and this the well poisoning and back handed comments to avoid the conclusions of your own logic.

                    I'm not advocating any of your implications pix. I am against abortion. I am against euthanasia, I am against any system that tries to put different value on human life based on the capabilities, mental or physical, of that human being. I know you'd really, really like to paint me as somehow advocating some evil since we disagree in this, but that simply is not reality.
                    And yet...

                    You use pro choice phrasing, logic, and lines in the sand to determine worthiness of life based upon stages of human development. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck, what is it?
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      I haven't lost any debate. You guys aren't debating. You're just throwing temper tantrums because I don't think exactly like you. I've given you reasons for my thinking. All you've done is call me names and ranted about me not saying the 'right' things.
                      I'm not talking about debates with Christians, I'm talking about debates with pro-abortionists. The moment you accept their language and reasoning then any debate with them is over before it even starts.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        I haven't lost any debate. You guys aren't debating. You're just throwing temper tantrums because I don't think exactly like you. I've given you reasons for my thinking. All you've done is call me names and ranted about me not saying the 'right' things.


                        Jim
                        And yet you’re the one that sounds frustrated and trying to avoid your own logic in which you assign worthiness of life based upon a line drawn in the sand.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          And yet you’re the one that sounds frustrated and trying to avoid your own logic in which you assign worthiness of life based upon a line drawn in the sand.
                          I never did that pix. What do we call it when one person accuses another of doing something they never did?


                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            I never did that pix. What do we call it when one person accuses another of doing something they never did?


                            Jim
                            Your own words:


                            Try reading real slow here Bill. Look at each word. See if you can get the difference. A zygote is the fertilized egg. It can produce a unique individual, but it is not yet a unique individual. There are many things that happen during the gestation perioed that affect the development of that baby, and those things can determine physical characteristics, mental capacity and personality. In the zygote are MANY potential individuals, only one of which will be realized. But it does not yet have human form, it cannot think or feel, it has no heart, no blood, no brain, no arms, no legs. Only the raw materials and instructions that will allow the development of the same. It is human life, but it is not a human being. Yet.
                            Explain how this isn’t a pro choice position where you draw lines in the sand to determine worthiness of life. I’ll wait...
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              I'm not talking about debates with Christians, I'm talking about debates with pro-abortionists. The moment you accept their language and reasoning then any debate with them is over before it even starts.
                              'their language'. MM, I'm simply discussing the reality of what the physical differences are between the zygote and the fully developed baby. Implicit in what you have said is that there is no solid, fact based argument against abortion. And I do not believe that. If one can't make the argument for one's position with all the facts in play, then one simply doesn't have an argument.


                              Jim
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                'their language'. MM, I'm simply discussing the reality what the physical differences are between the zygote and the fully developed baby. Implicit in what you have said is that there is not solid argument against abortion. And I do not believe that. If one can't make the argument for one's position with all the facts in play, then one simply doesn't have an argument.


                                Jim
                                Zygote is a stage of human development, just like any other because ranges of things can happen to you that effects your development, even after you are born. Your criteria is just a line in the sand, with a thin justification that really is no different, in logic, than the pro choice positions you claim not to support.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

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