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Thread: Christ in Ancient Americas - A Compelling Evidence of the BOM's Authenticity

  1. #11
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Thanks for saving me a bit of work Dante.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  2. Amen Dante, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  3. #12
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Thanks for saving me a bit of work Dante.
    He dun good!!!! I was in the process of running some of that stuff down, but Dante pretty much shucked the corn all by his own little self!
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  4. #13
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    ... Not to mention, the Book of Mormon was supposed to have happened in north and central America, not south.
    I think he tried to cover that by claiming that this 'white man' then "walked North": "They say that this man went on towards the north, working these marvels along the way of the mountains; and that he never more returned so as to be seen".

    Plus, the Nephites were white so why would they even notice a white man among them like you mention above as special enough to call out the color of his skin?
    I always get confused as to which ones were white and which ones were, as Brigham Young* put it, "black, uncouth, un-comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind". It's encouraging to know, however, that they have the potential to become "a white and delightsome people".

    I can certainly understand why TRB is trying so strenuously to confine us to his talking points.




    *Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110. / Journal of Discourses 7:290-91 (October 9, 1859). source
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  5. #14
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I think he tried to cover that by claiming that this 'white man' then "walked North": "They say that this man went on towards the north, working these marvels along the way of the mountains; and that he never more returned so as to be seen".



    I always get confused as to which ones were white and which ones were, as Brigham Young* put it, "black, uncouth, un-comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind". It's encouraging to know, however, that they have the potential to become "a white and delightsome people".

    I can certainly understand why TRB is trying so strenuously to confine us to his talking points.




    *Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110. / Journal of Discourses 7:290-91 (October 9, 1859). source
    Well he was claiming that the event was the same as in the BoM. And that was to the Nephites, the good, white and delightsome folk. So somehow he is claiming the Incas were the Nephites, but the Incas weren't white. And if they used to be white before they fell and became dark skinned then why would they bother mentioning that the man who appeared to them was white? It would have been totally normal and nothing to mention. And I think the Nephites were supposed to be in North and Central America, the Promised Land. So that means that the Incas could not have been the Nephites and it could not have been the same event as in the BoM.

    Book_of_Mormon_Lands_and_Sites2.jpg

  6. Amen Dante, shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  7. #15
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    The Natural and Moral History of the Indies, the classic work of New World history originally published by José de Acosta in 1590

    The published story of Viracocha long pre-dates the BOM.
    and it makes quite an interesting read.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Thanks for saving me a bit of work Dante.
    That was an epic "drop the mic" moment.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  9. Amen Cow Poke, Dante, ke7ejx amen'd this post.
  10. #17
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  11. #18
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    He's been on several times since the response went up, and has posted in defense of his honor elsewhere. Apparently he's still working on a response here.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    High Priestess of the Pot Stirrers ke7ejx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    He's been on several times since the response went up, and has posted in defense of his honor elsewhere. Apparently he's still working on a response here.
    You mean the one where I'm so horribly mean to him?
    I am Punkinhead.

    "I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"

    ~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....

  13. #20
    tWebber TimothyRB's Avatar
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    Post Response Part One

    1. Statement and response to position one - exposing the Red Herring and Special Pleading:

    In the introduction paragraph:

    The Book of Mormon has always been a stumbling block for many evangelical Christians. Many attempts have given over to some interesting theories of how this text came about. One of the main criticisms is that there is no archaeological evidence to substantiate any people, person, place, or event recorded in the Book of Mormon text.

    The response to this is:

    False. One of the main criticisms of the Book of Mormon is the extensive amount of egregious errors found in the Book of Mormon.
    The respondent provided a link to a paper written by Jon Gary Williams at Apologetics Press - titled THE BOOK OF MORMON: A BOOK OF MISTAKES, ERROR, AND FRAUD. It is regarding the textual criticism Evangelical Christians utilize in their attempt to diminish the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Granted, this is considered one of many main criticisms launched against the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. It is not the de facto criticism. Also, the introduction of the egregious errors argument is considered a Red Herring Logical Fallacy.

    Red - Herring: Ignoratio elenchi
    (also known as: beside the point, misdirection [form of], changing the subject, false emphasis, the Chewbacca defense, irrelevant conclusion, irrelevant thesis, clouding the issue, ignorance of refutation) Description: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.


    This is common practice among those who may disagree with another person's position. By introducing another topic and argument, the attempt is made to focus more on the textual criticism argument of the Book of Mormon instead of focusing on the presenting argument itself.

    A secondary logical fallacy is also imposed on the respondents statement as well: Special Pleading. In committing special pleading, the respondent appears to justify their position of the Book of Mormon being fraudulent because of egregious errors. This is the same argument many atheists and critics of the Bible utilize as there is evidences that support egregious errors within the text. In fact, this latter position is known as Textual criticism of the Bible. The special pleading occurs when many critic's point to textual errors of the various manuscripts, translations, and transcription of the Book of Mormon: Yet, fail to apply the same rules of logic and argumentation against the various manuscripts, translations, and transcriptional errors found within the Biblical Text.

    And, those who did comment on the post - have pointed out how I have falsely claimed that the archaeological evidence argument is one of the main stumbling blocks. In the end, it is a frivolous means to engage in addressing the presenting evidence and information. Or, not having any purpose or inherit value to the conversation.

    2. Statement and response to position two - addressing a hasty generalization fallacy

    In the introductory paragraph, a hypothesis is proposed:

    However, what if there existed an actual historical recording of the most singular and significant event that brings forth a close to the criticism? Not only a recording that lends credibility to this magnificent event, it correlates geographically to a specific place.

    This is a hypothesis concerning whether or not there is actual archaeological evidence and credibility to a particular event where there is a geographical location being mentioned. We understand that a hypothesis is a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

    The respondent made this hasty generalized statement as an apparent point of refutation to the hypothesis:

    No such historical record exists.
    It is considered a hasty generalization fallacy because of the presenting biased belief and presumption that there is no archaeological evidence present to confirm the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. And, since hasty generalization deals with drawing conclusions on a small sample size, it also deals with dismissing small samples and evidences that may lead to a better grasp of additional information that is typical of similar situations. In this case, denying any potential historical record or evidence fails because it denies that there may be historical accounts that exist, yet to be found.

    When someone brings up the argument that no such evidence exists to authenticate the historicity of the Book of Mormon, I remind them that some of the major archaeological evidences that have been discovered were by small and insignificant artifacts. For instance, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls were a happenstance discovery by a shepherds boy when he threw a rock into a cave and heard something break. Therefore, not only is it egregiously wrong to argue from a position of silence, it is even more egregiously wrong to argue from silence when evidence is being presented that substantiates claims. Furthermore, there are still non-existent evidences when it concerns the Biblical text.

    3. Statement and position three - addressing the false interpretation of the narrative

    In the first parallel of the Second Part to the Chronicles of Peru and 3 Nephi 8-11, the focus was on the nature and precedent of the condition and state of existence being described in both accounts. Both accounts describe a time when there were no lights, and the inhabitants were in distress, offering up prayers.

    The respondent makes a faulty conclusion that is not congruent within the context of 3 Nephi 8-11:

    A solar eclipse followed by repentance isn't a unique event at all. It has happened during the Eclipse of Thales, where a battle was stopped because the soldiers perceived it to be the wrath of the gods against them, and so they made peace. Furthermore, the duration of the darkness wasn't even specified by the Peruvians; it could be less than a day for all it matters, since an eclipse lasting more than 7 minutes is already highly unusual even for modern times.
    First, there was no mention of the darkness being the result of the solar eclipse. Second, a reading of the immediate context will preclude any conclusion that it was describing a solar eclipse:

    And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease—for behold, they did last for about the space of three hours; and it was said by some that the time was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terrible things were done in about the space of three hours—and then behold, there was darkness upon the face of the land.

    3 Nephi 8:19 does not describe a solar eclipse where there are thunderings, lightenings, and storms, tempest and quakes. In fact, when you go back and read 3 Nephi 8:5-18, one reads the catastrophic event that took place. This event fits within the description of what happens during a catastrophic volcanic eruption. This is substantiated by several people who have observed and studied this specific text of scripture.

    Alvin K. Benson writes in his article - Geological Upheaval and Darkness in 3 Nephi 8 -10 - as to the significant detailed account:

    As with all prophecies of the Lord, fulfillment of the Nephite prophecies came with total and unerring certainty. When the Master—hanging on the cross just outside Jerusalem—gave up his life, the American continent experienced great calamities. Speaking about the events recorded in 3 Nephi 8–10, Elder Bruce R. McConkie stated: “No single historical event in the whole Book of Mormon account is recorded in so great detail or such extended length as the fulfillment of the signs signifying that Jesus had been lifted up upon the cross and had voluntarily laid down his life for the world” (542).


    Benson further observes:

    Both Zenos and Nephi prophesied that the events described in 3 Nephi 8–10 would be accompanied by fire (1 Nephi 12:4; 19:11; 2 Nephi 26:6); and indeed 3 Nephi 9:11 states that the Lord “did send down fire.” It is quite probable that this may refer to lightning accompanying volcanic activity triggered by the quaking earth (3 Nephi 8:17). Photos of erupting volcanoes, such as Mount Vesuvius in 1944 (Fodor 15) and Sakura-jima in 1987 (Kemp 40–41), show hundreds of lightning bolts in the ash clouds above those volcanoes. The friction between fine volcanic ash particles in the atmosphere is very effective in generating severe lightning without any attending rain, leaving the ground and wood very dry. It is interesting that after hours of thunderstorm activity of unprecedented fury and violent earthquakes, the Nephites’ wood was still referred to as being “exceedingly dry” (3 Nephi 8:21).

    Furthermore, if volcanic eruptions lasted for several hours, as indicated in 3 Nephi 8, an enormous amount of ash would have been discharged into the atmosphere. The ash from a volcano can rise to great heights (many thousands of feet) and then spread out in the stratosphere to cover a large region with an inpenetrable cloud of dust (Goldner and Vogel 37–43; Warren and Ferguson 42). Volcanic ash, smoke, and gases, along with dust and debris rising into the air from a large earthquake, could have produced the “vapor of darkness” spoken of in 3 Nephi 8:20 and 10:13. Professor Hugh Nibley also suggests that the vapor of darkness may have resulted from volcanic activity (267). Furthermore, volcanic ash and lava can be carried up to bury cities (Berger 57–61), and Nephi records that the earth was carried up on the city Moronihah (3 Nephi 8:10) and not down, as one would expect in a landslide.

    Also, in 3 Nephi 10:13, inference can be drawn that people died from suffocation from “the vapor of smoke and of darkness.” Warren and Ferguson record that when the ash from a volcanic eruption “begins to fall back toward the earth, it is accompanied by many gases, including hydrochloric acid, hydrofluoric acid, carbonic acid, carbon dioxide, and ammonia. If the ash fall is heavy, people will naturally suffocate, not only from the ash content itself but from these gases, which are lethal in large quantities” (42). In several modern cases, volcanic gases have collected in low spots after an eruption, killing people, animals, and vegetation (Montgomery 105–106; Macdonald 251–52, 257). The fate of a particular city would depend on its location relative to fault lines and volcanoes, and upon the direction of the wind carrying volcanic ash and gases. In the regions of the surviving Nephites, the concentration of volcanic gases may have been sufficient to prevent the ignition of fires but not high enough to suffocate people. Because most volcanic gases are heavier than air, they tend to hug the ground; hence, at ground level, concentrations could have been high enough to prevent ignition of the Nephites’ dry tinder. However, in the more righteous cities, lethal concentrations may not have been present a few feet above the ground allowing the more righteous to survive.


    Since this detailed description of a catastrophic event appears to focus more on a geographical event, there is no room to infer that this was caused by the astronomical event of a Solar Eclipse. And, as Benson points out, this was more of a local and not a global event. Furthermore, it offers more credibility and support to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon as the very description is similar across all accounts concerning major volcanic eruptions - too include three days of heavy darkness as a result of it.

    One of the evidences for a volcanic eruption to cause three days of darkness is that regarding the great eruption of 1912 when Novarupta erupted in June of 1912. The events described are similar to that of 3 Nephi 8-10:

    At Kodiak, 100 miles (160 km) southeast of the eruption center, the air became thick with ash and, for 60 hours, darkness was so complete that a lantern held at arm’s length could scarcely be seen. The terrified townspeople, some temporarily blinded by the sulfurous gas, crowded onto the U.S. Revenue Cutter Manning docked in Kodiak harbor, while one foot of ash (30 cm) smothered their town with three closely spaced periods of ash fall. The weight of the ash collapsed roofs in Kodiak; buildings were wrecked by ash avalanches that rushed down from nearby hill slopes; other structures burned after being struck by lightning from the ash cloud; and water became undrinkable.

    And, earthquakes always come before a major Volcanic Eruption.

    One of the more famous accounts of a volcanic eruption is described by Pliny the Younger. His description of the eruption of Mt Vesuvius in 79 AD is now known as a Plinian Eruption and is categorized as one of the most violent forms of volcanic eruption:

    The largest and most violent of all the types of volcanic eruptions are Plinian eruptions. They are caused by the fragmentation of gassy magma, and are usually associated with very viscous magmas (dacite and rhyolite). They release enormous amounts of energy and create eruption columns of gas and ash that can rise up to 50 km (35 miles) high at speeds of hundreds of meters per second. Ash from an eruption column can drift or be blown hundreds or thousands of miles away from the volcano. The eruption columns are usually shaped like a mushroom (similar to a nuclear explosion) or an Italian pine tree; Pliny the Younger, a Roman historian, made the comparison while viewing the 79 AD eruption of Mount Vesuvius, and Plinian eruptions are named for him.

    Plinian eruptions are extremely destructive, and can even obliterate the entire top of a mountain, as occurred at Mount St. Helens in 1980. They can produce falls of ash, scoria and lava bombs miles from the volcano, and pyroclastic density currents that raze forests, strip soil from bedrock and obliterate anything in their paths. These eruptions are often climactic, and a volcano with a magma chamber emptied by a large Plinian eruption may subsequently enter a period of inactivity.

    And, one of the most catastrophic and devastating volcanic eruptions is that of August 1883. This is the first time that an eruption like this had a global impact.

    https___blogs-images.forbes.com_davidbressan_files_2016_08_SYMONS_1888_Krakatau.jpg
    SYMONS_1888_Krakatau


    This eruption caused a Tsunami, the loudest sound in recorded human history, and claimed more than 35,000 victims. The devastating explosion was heard over 3,000 miles. And, it blocked out the sun for about two days, and caused global impact on the way people seen the sunset. In fact, the famous Scream Painting by artist Munch may very well have captured this event.

    Now, I agree that a solar eclipse would not amount to any causation for humanity to engage in wailings, mourning's, and call to repentance. However, a major catastrophic event may very well awaken people to the reality of our very own fragile human existence and the reality that there may be a God. Then, again, the text of 3 Nephi 8-11, the catastrophic event, and the appearance of Christ to the Ancient Inhabitants solidify an actual historical event that is supported by numerous evidences.

    Since my essay contends that Christ appeared first to those inhabitants around Lake Titicaca, we also want to consider the additional archaeological evidence where the Lake actually has ancient ruins underwater. The BBC News Reports this:

    The ruins of an ancient temple have been found by international archaeologists under Lake Titicaca, the world's highest lake.

    A terrace for crops, a long road and an 800-metre (2,600 feet) long wall was also found under the waters of the lake, sited in the Andes mountains between Bolivia and Peru.

    Dating back 1,000 to 1,500 years ago, the ruins are pre-Incan.

    They have been attributed to the indigenous Tiwanaku or Tiahuanaco people, said Lorenzo Epis, the Italian scientist leading the Atahuallpa 2000 scientific expedition.

    The holy temple measures 200m by 50m (660ft by 160ft) almost twice the size of an average football pitch.

    There are some interesting speculations surrounding the Lake, the sunken temple, and the Pre-Inca's that resided in this area.



    Regardless of the differing speculations, the evidence is becoming more and more corroborating of the account contained in 3 Nephi 8-11. That is, there appears to be sufficient evidence between the nature of Pedro de Ceiza de Leon's account in Chapter Five of the Second Part to the Chronicles of Peru and that of 3 Nephi 8-11, and archaeological discoveries dating back to the exact time period of this catastrophic event.


    4. Statement and response to position four - argument from a presentist viewpoint

    One of the problems that arise in these types of discussions is our present view point and modern day expectations when it comes to historical accounts. In the response to the second part of the comparison of the Second Part of the Chronicles of Peru to that of 3 Nephi 11:8-15 concerns the appearance of Christ. The respondents contention is this:

    The parts that you bolded are not reflected in the Chronicle of Peru. One would think that if Christ had indeed appeared to them, they would not have had human sacrifices.
    There are two separate arguments contained in this faulty statement. First, is the presentist viewpoint, and the second is the conclusion of engaging in human sacrifices. Neither account provides any information regarding human sacrifices. That is an inference the respondent provides within the context of comparing the two accounts. Therefore, there is no need to address this. What will be addressed is the first part of the response to determine whether or not the comparison of the two accounts are reflective of the same event and person of that event.

    In Pedro de Cieza de Leon's account, we read:

    Things being in this state, the sun, shining very brightly, came forth from the island of Titicaca, in the great lake of the Collao, at which every one rejoiced

    Things being in what state? The second part of this account refers to the first paragraph of Chapter Five regarding the nature and state of darkness and distress the inhabitants found themselves in. A state where the sun had not shown and darkness was upon them. And, we understand that darkness is the mere absence of any light.

    In 3 Nephi 10:9, we have this being written, and how it correlates with the account from Pedro de Cieza de Leon, as to the sudden light that dispelled the darkness:

    And it came to pass that thus did the three days pass away. And it was in the morning, and the darkness dispersed from off the face of the land, and the earth did cease to tremble, and the rocks did cease to rend, and the dreadful groanings did cease, and all the tumultuous noises did pass away.

    Bear in mind that darkness is the absence of light. Both accounts, variant in their renderings, describe disbursement of the darkness.

    In Pedro de Cieza de Leon's account, we read this:

    Presently afterwards, they say, that there came from a southern direction a white man of great stature, who by his aspect and presence called forth great veneration and obedience.

    In 3 Nephi 11:8, we read the following:

    And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.

    What the respondent failed to recognize is that both accounts describe a man descending and that in Pedro's account, the oral tradition being delivered is a white man whereas the account in 3 Nephi 11:8 says that Christ descended clothed in a white robe. There are logical justifications as to how these accounts are describing the same person in different tones. First, we want to keep in mind that the oral tradition being related to Pedro de Cieza de Leon was in the native Incan language. It was translated into the Spanish language that Pedro de Cieza de Leon understood. In his prologue to the First part of the Chronicle of Peru, Pedro says this:

    I SET out from Spain, where I was born and bred, at such a tender age that I was scarcely thirteen complete years old when I sailed; and I spent more than seventeen years in the Indies, many of them in the discovery and conquest of new provinces, others in new settlements, and in travelling over different countries. As I noted the many great and strange things that are to be seen in this new world of the Indies, there came upon me a strong desire to write an account of some of them, as well those which I had seen with my own eyes as those which I had heard of from persons of good repute. But when I considered my small stock of learning I put aside my desire, holding it to be a vain thing; for I remembered that it was for learned doctors to write histories, throwing light upon them by their learning and judgment, while those who are not learned would be presumptuous even if they thought of writing. I, therefore, passed some time without giving heed to my former intentions. At last the Almighty God, who can do anything, favoured me with His divine grace, and awoke in me the memory of what I had before forgotten. Taking heart, I then determined to spend some part of my life in writing history, to which resolution I was moved by the following considerations.

    His work was translated from Spanish to English by Clements R. Markham and published by the HAKLUYT SOCIETY.

    In such translation, some information may be lost. What we do see is that both are descriptors and very well may be referencing the observation of how Christ appeared verses the ontological descriptor of his skin color. An example would be seeing someone afar off dressed in white. Based on your perception, the person may appear to be white in color. Another example is when someone reports a criminal activity and attempts to describe a vehicle and sometimes, within the limitation of darkness, they may say it is a white vehicle due to how color is distorted. However, whether it is describing the person as being white or wearing a white robe, the accounts still hold significant similarities within each other.

    Both accounts also describe the specific nature of Christ's visit. Again, the account we have recorded in Pedro Cieza de Leon's Second Part of his Chronicles in Peru are more of a summation; the account in 3 Nephi 8-11 expands on what Christ taught. Again, this points to more to how the accounts are more harmonious than they are at odds with one another.

    5. Statement and response - Observation clarified and a Faulty Premise

    The respondent makes an observation appears to need correcting. And, yes, there needs to be a correction to the statement. This observation concerns the following:

    And, Isla del Sol is said, by Inca legends and mythology, to be the birthplace of the Sun. What we notice in Pedro de Ceza de Leon's historical account is that the Indians describe the coming of a man with great power. His brightness caused the darkness to disappear - as in how the Sun rises. Now, we know that the Sun rises in the East and sets in the west. The account here signifies that this man came from a Southern direction, from the Island of Titicaca.


    The respondent makes this clear:

    The Peruvian account has them saying that the white man came after the sun had appeared, not that the white man caused the eclipse to go away.
    And, I agree with this. However, both accounts actually show that Christ came after the dissipation of the darkness and the coming of the Sun. So, while the respondent adequately pointed out an error on my part, we both made false connections. It is only after a careful examination of the context of both passages, we find that the coming of Christ is after the sun had appeared and not the causation of the sun to appear. Furthermore, it was not the solar eclipse that disappeared, it was the darkness caused by the volcanic eruption.

    However, the respondent goes on to make this faulty assertion:

    Per the Peruvian account, the white man has nothing to do with the rising of the sun. Plus, the account in the Book of Mormon has "Christ" descending from heaven, and not the south.
    This is in response to my observation that we understand and know that the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West. Pedro's account reports that the individual appearing to the inhabitants of the Pre-Inca's came from a southerly direction:

    that there came from a southern direction a white man of great stature

    I am merely pointing out an observation that we understand the sun to rise from the east and sets in the west. As to the nature of the direction an individual was coming from, the account we read appears to be different (as the respondent points out).

    In the account of 3 Nephi 11, the inhabitants hear something and attempt to turn toward the direction of the sound. We also read that once the darkness dissipated, they looked about and then looked up toward heaven. 3 Nephi does not provide an exact direction. However, the account given in the Second Part of the Chronicle of Peru says that the man came from a southern direction with no additional information provided. It is only when we examine the context of both passages that we may confidently conclude that Christ descended from a Southernly direction when he appeared to the inhabitants.

    It is much like referencing something and how another party interprets it. For example, if we say that something is on the Television, we are referring to a show. Yet, if we were to go to another country and say that something is on TV, the interpretation is quite literally taken that we are referring to something that is occupying a space on top of the TV set and not a show. Regardless, whatever direction and how this person appears, both accounts are more focused on who this individual is and what this individual taught.

    The second part of the respondents statement refers back to an established biased assumption that is based on two faulty premises: Ego involvement and Overconfidence effect. The respondent appears to make an assertion that is based on a subjective confidence in their judgment as being more reliable than objective accuracy. Which is impacted by the fact that one's proneness toward one's own investment because of group membership & one's own emotional commitment that they’re unlikely to rethink or revise it.

    Because his account has absolutely nothing to do with the fictional account in the Book of Mormon.
    This act of dismissal of the evidence being presented is another common tactic utilized by some Evangelical Christians. Since they are driven by their own investment in how the Book of Mormon is fraudulent, they are not concerned with any reason to rethink their position or even attempt to revise it. This is because they have strong subjective confidence in their own judgments, and the judgments of others who collectively hold membership in a collective emotional commitment, as being more reliable and accurate than objectivity. This type of dismissive statement does not provide any credible and objective support as to how the accounts are non-supportive of one another. Again, it is because of the entrenched belief that one has already concluded the Book of Mormon to be fictitious and therefore, no amount of credible, or objective accurate information may prove otherwise.

    The contention here is a concrete account of what is being shared in regards to the coming of a man that fits well within the context and description of 3 Nephi 8-11. It is this very contention that individuals, like this respondent, are not willing to give themselves over to an objective and logical reason to discuss.
    For a Christ-Centric Recovery and Mindful Christian Living - Damascus Way Recovery

    For Latter-day Saint Christian, Political, and Social Commentary and Apologetics - Mormon Apologia

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