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Thread: Christ in Ancient Americas - A Compelling Evidence of the BOM's Authenticity

  1. #31
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    No, it's a classic Gish Gallop.
    It might be both actually....
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  2. #32
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyRB View Post
    Mere assertions lacking supporting evidence relegates your statements and responses as arrogant ignorant opinion hit piece.
    Actually, your gargantuan walls of text are simply mere assertions lacking supporting evidence, so....
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  3. #33
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    No, it's a classic Gish Gallop.
    Not sure about that. A Gish Gallop is to try to throw out as many arguments as possible regardless of their validity in order to prevent the opponent from responding to them all. The problem with TimothyRB's presentation of his arguments was being way too long-winded. Let's examine just the beginning of Dante's response and TimothyRB's counter-response for an example. Here was what Dante said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dante View Post
    False. One of the main criticisms of the Book of Mormon is the extensive amount of egregious errors found in the Book of Mormon.
    https://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/...-of-Mormon.pdf
    In response to what was essentially a brief aside before Dante got into his main point, TimothyRB let off with this long-winded response:
    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyRB View Post
    1. Statement and response to position one - exposing the Red Herring and Special Pleading:

    In the introduction paragraph:

    The Book of Mormon has always been a stumbling block for many evangelical Christians. Many attempts have given over to some interesting theories of how this text came about. One of the main criticisms is that there is no archaeological evidence to substantiate any people, person, place, or event recorded in the Book of Mormon text.

    The response to this is:



    The respondent provided a link to a paper written by Jon Gary Williams at Apologetics Press - titled THE BOOK OF MORMON: A BOOK OF MISTAKES, ERROR, AND FRAUD. It is regarding the textual criticism Evangelical Christians utilize in their attempt to diminish the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Granted, this is considered one of many main criticisms launched against the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. It is not the de facto criticism. Also, the introduction of the egregious errors argument is considered a Red Herring Logical Fallacy.

    Red - Herring: Ignoratio elenchi
    (also known as: beside the point, misdirection [form of], changing the subject, false emphasis, the Chewbacca defense, irrelevant conclusion, irrelevant thesis, clouding the issue, ignorance of refutation) Description: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.


    This is common practice among those who may disagree with another person's position. By introducing another topic and argument, the attempt is made to focus more on the textual criticism argument of the Book of Mormon instead of focusing on the presenting argument itself.
    Not only is that a whole lotta text to essentially say nothing more than "don't change the subject," the charge of changing the subject is nonsensical here, because Dante then followed his comment up in his post by responding to TimothyRB's main assertion. Accusing someone of changing the subject to avoid dealing with the main point only works if they didn't actually address the main point. Even if TimothyRB doesn't believe Dante successfully disputed his main point (that of similarities between a historical account and what the Book of Mormon says), the charge of changing the subject is still wrong.

    One could perhaps say that Dante was unnecessarily snide with his remark, but any snideness in it was dwarfed by TimothyRB's tone in his responding post as if it was some kind of case study, e.g. referring to Dante as "the respondent" and "the individual".

    I suppose it's similar to a Gish Gallop in that the result (intentionally or not) can be to make someone give up arguing out of frustration, but it's not really quantity of arguments so much as it's simply quantity of text.

  4. Amen Dante, One Bad Pig amen'd this post.
  5. #34
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyRB View Post
    This Gish gallop is so chock full of blatant errors that even the most cursory of examinations would expose it is difficult to even know where to start.

    ETA: I see others have already noticed the similarities to the notorious tactic used by the late Duane Gish. Then again it is pretty obvious.
    Last edited by rogue06; 03-10-2019 at 04:14 AM.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  6. #35
    tWebber Dante's Avatar
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    Fortunately I've enough patience to separate the wheat from the chaff, and that is a lot of chaff.
    The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

  7. #36
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    This Gish gallop is so chock full of blatant errors that even the most cursory of examinations would expose it is difficult to even know where to start.

    ETA: I see others have already noticed the similarities to the notorious tactic used by the late Duane Gish. Then again it is pretty obvious.
    His voluminous arguments are obviously intended to obscure and confuse rather than enlighten. Compare it to Dante's efficient clarity.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  8. #37
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Moderated By: Sparko


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  9. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  10. #38
    tWebber Dante's Avatar
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    Out of curiousity I tried using a word count tool to check how many words/characters I've used against his second attempt, and I've only used about 1824 words; 10,685 characters, in my rebuttals of both parts 1 & 2, combined.
    The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

  11. #39
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante View Post
    Out of curiousity I tried using a word count tool to check how many words/characters I've used against his second attempt, and I've only used about 1824 words; 10,685 characters, in my rebuttals of both parts 1 & 2, combined.
    I think the only time we are concerned about the word count is when somebody gets nearly obscenely verbose, and does so over multiple posts, and is not really engaging in debate in good faith.

    You've done an excellent job rebutting him, but he just blogs on. He needs to do that on his own dime.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  12. Amen Bill the Cat, Sparko amen'd this post.
  13. #40
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    We are just against elephant hurls and blogging. This is a discussion site and the only way to have a real debate is to keep the posts concise and short. People can always move on to more points later.

  14. Amen Bill the Cat, Littlejoe amen'd this post.

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