Homophobic Trump...

[seer]

And that is in a society that accepts them so the excuse that they face constant discrimination cannot be used to explain their self-destructive behavior.

Right...

[carpedm9587]

If you want to find out the effect on emotional stability for hormone therapy, go find it yourself.

I don't need to. I have two friends who are trans, one of whom has been through gender reassignment surgery. I've been through a fair amount of the transition with the latter. I have a pretty good feel for what she went through, how it impacts her, and the demands it places on her long-term. My request was not made for you to "prove it to me" because I don't honestly think you can. I would be willing to look at it if you could - but I think you would find (if you bothered to look) that your position does not have any supporting data for it. There is no data that I know of that suggests a trans person is more emotionally or psychologically unstable than any other human being - or that their hormone treatments make them a higher risk to anyone.

[carpedm9587]

From your link:

Never mind the Psychosexual Conditions, how many Trans would fall under A&B?

You tell me, Seer. I don't know of anyone who is trans who had to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital to deal with their transition. The care of a physician is needed primarily if there is gender reassignment, and less than 2% of trans persons actually opt for that path. So the list doesn't seem to me to impact trans people anymore than any other group.

[carpedm9587]

I'm not calling them evil and mad, I'm calling the mind set that wants to force the military to accept them mad and evil, specifically political correctness, identity politics, and leftism in general.

Yeah - and they said the same thing about gay soldiers...and about women... we're just going around for another pass.

I, for one, am grateful to the liberals and leftists (and many of us moderates) who stand behind and push for this issue. In general, they are the people most pushing for inclusivity in all aspects of society. I don't find that to be a hallmark of conservatives. In general, when there is a group being demonized, I find it is usually the left defending them, and the right attacking them. We're seeing this in immigration. We saw it (and still see it) with homosexuality. Now it's trans. It still happens with racism and the black community. It is liberals and moderates (generally) that is still the group saying, "we still have a problem here" and the conservatives refusing to acknowledge that racism even exists anymore.

So - here's to THAT kind of political correctness. I'm all over it. Other kinds I could do without, but then again, PC just means "I don't want to hear it," right?

[carpedm9587]

Yet in Sweden, where trans are widely accepted, we still see this:

I have to admit most of this was new information to me, but I have to admit I am not all that surprised. I would love to see the trend lines over time. I would be willing to bet that we would see that, as trans gender gains wider acceptance, and as the counseling/psychiatric community develops better tools for dealing with gender-related issues, the rate will drop. Indeed, I would expect to see it has already started dropping. A similar thing happened among homosexuals. At the peak of the AIDS epidemic and social rejection of homosexuality, gay suicides were through the roof (statistically speaking). They have been progressively dropping over time. I suspect (but cannot find any data) that trans gender rates are likewise on the decline and will continue to do so.

And none of that really changes anything I've said: if you are going to exclude an entire class - you had better find an attribute of the class that is universally exclusionary. Otherwise, if your concern is just "higher rate detected," you are barring the 95+% who are NOT suicidal from serving because of the 4+% who are. That is simply a form of discrimination. And it leave you unable to address the suggestion that we should bar men because they suicide a 3.54 times the rate of women.

[seer]

Yeah - and they said the same thing about gay soldiers...and about women... we're just going around for another pass.

Women have been in the military for ever, and to be honest I would not want to shower with gay men.

I, for one, am grateful to the liberals and leftists (and many of us moderates) who stand behind and push for this issue. In general, they are the people most pushing for inclusivity in all aspects of society. I don't find that to be a hallmark of conservatives. In general, when there is a group being demonized, I find it is usually the left defending them, and the right attacking them. We're seeing this in immigration. We saw it (and still see it) with homosexuality. Now it's trans. It still happens with racism and the black community. It is liberals and moderates (generally) that is still the group saying, "we still have a problem here" and the conservatives refusing to acknowledge that racism even exists anymore.

Yep you have the identity, leftists talking points down pat. Very good comrade...

So - here's to THAT kind of political correctness. I'm all over it. Other kinds I could do without, but then again, PC just means "I don't want to hear it," right?

Yes and political correctness worked so well in Mao's Cultural Revolution...

[carpedm9587]

You're free to believe what you want to believe, carpe. Your "higher rate" is a rather false equivalence to "orders of magnitude higher," but thanks for trying. In my experience, homosexuals, much less transsexuals, do not handle stress well (I've worked with both in my very diversity-conscious place of employment). My gay roommate in college moved out because I didn't talk enough. I didn't even know he was gay until he confessed to that in his departure note.

Your position on homosexuality is rooted in your experience with a roommate who didn't like your talking habits? Really? This is the evidence you provide?

Your "orders of magnitude" claim is not supportable, as far as I can tell. Here are some of the statistics from the Trevor project.

It shows pretty much what I would expect. The rate of LGB youth suicides is about as much above the average as male suicides are above female suicides (3 times as likely to think about, 5 times as likely to try it). The only thing that is ONE order of magnitude (not orders) is trans suicide rates, which are at 40% of transgender youth. The rates drop somewhat as they age, but remain fairly high even into adulthood.

But note one very interesting little statistic:

LGB youth who come from highly rejecting families are 8.4 times as likely to have attempted suicide as LGB peers who reported no or low levels of family rejection.

So what do you think? Maybe being told you're a vile sinner, repulsive, disgusting, an abomination, an violation of nature, and so forth has something to do with the "stress" and percentages we see. 8.4 times as likely!

What I am seeing is a lot of people who are part of the CAUSE of much of the stress complaining because the people they victimize are actually more likely to harm themselves, so they don't deserve to serve our country - yet another repudiation of what and what they are.

Maybe, if people were simply allowed to be who and what they are, without the judgement and attacks of their parents, peers, and elders, we might actually see the suicide rates drop to be in line with the rest of society? Just maybe?

[carpedm9587]

Women have been in the military for ever,

In the U.S., up until 1948, women only served in times of war - and only in support positions (nursing, clerical work, etc.). Over the years, some were enlisted as spies. As of 1948 they could serve full time in the military - but only in non-combat positions. Elizabeth Barrett was the first woman to hold a command in a combat zone (1972 Vietnam) - as a naval line officer. The Equal Rights amendment changed things a lot, but I am not seeing women in combat roles into we get to the 1990s, AFAICT. So your statement is a little simplistic.

and to be honest I would not want to shower with gay men.

Your repugnance is duly noted - and not that surprising. You might be surprised to find that you have probably showered with gay men many times and had no clue you were doing so. As far as I know, they have basically the same equipment you have!

Yep you have the identity, leftists talking points down pat. Very good comrade...

Really, Seer? Do you think this kind of adolescent baiting is productive? I'll leave you to it.

Yes and political correctness worked so well in Mao's Cultural Revolution...

You do seem to have a thing for MAo's and the Cultural Revolution. It's a recurring theme with you. Is there a particular reason this is your "go to" jibe?

[seer]

I have to admit most of this was new information to me, but I have to admit I am not all that surprised. I would love to see the trend lines over time. I would be willing to bet that we would see that, as trans gender gains wider acceptance, and as the counseling/psychiatric community develops better tools for dealing with gender-related issues, the rate will drop. Indeed, I would expect to see it has already started dropping. A similar thing happened among homosexuals. At the peak of the AIDS epidemic and social rejection of homosexuality, gay suicides were through the roof (statistically speaking). They have been progressively dropping over time. I suspect (but cannot find any data) that trans gender rates are likewise on the decline and will continue to do so.

I think that it is telling that in probably the most egalitarian nation on earth the suicide rate quite a bit higher than for straights. So it is not just negative cultural push back as you suggested.

And none of that really changes anything I've said: if you are going to exclude an entire class - you had better find an attribute of the class that is universally exclusionary. Otherwise, if your concern is just "higher rate detected," you are barring the 95+% who are NOT suicidal from serving because of the 4+% who are. That is simply a form of discrimination. And it leave you unable to address the suggestion that we should bar men because they suicide a 3.54 times the rate of women.

Thanks for sharing your subjective and relative opinion.

[Starlight]

Yet in Sweden, where trans are widely accepted

And that is in a society that accepts them so the excuse that they face constant discrimination cannot be used to explain their self-destructive behavior.

You guys apparently don't realize, or choose to ignore, that a majority of people not being nasty to trans people isn't remotely the same as everyone not being nasty to trans people.

Polling shows about a fifth to a quarter of Swedes oppose transgenderism agreeing with statements such as "They have a form of mental illness", "They are committing a sin", "I worry about exposing children to transgender people", "They are violating the traditions of my culture", "Society has gone too far in allowing people to dress and live as one sex even though they were born another", "They are not a natural occurrence", "They should not be allowed to have gender reassignment surgery", "They should not be allowed to serve in the military", "They should not be allowed to conceive or give birth to children" (!), "They should not be allowed to adopt children".

If a transgender person in Sweden knows that one in every 4 or 5 people they meet holds these type of negative and hateful views of them, they are hardly going to feel accepted, they are going to feel stressed. With each and every new person they meet, they would rightly wonder at the back of their mind "does this person hate me for who I am?" Of course this is stressful for them.

Your apparent belief that transgender people in Sweden do not suffer any stress as a result of a quarter of people they meet being against them, is mindbogglingly stupid.

Transgender persons are orders of magnitude more likely to commit suicide. Feel free to pretend there's no connection between suicide and stress.

Exactly. And yet you and people like you pretend that stressing transgender people by opposing them and their human rights at every turn, somehow doesn't make you personally responsible for the results of the stress you cause them.

[carpedm9587]

I think that it is telling that in probably the most egalitarian nation on earth the suicide rate quite a bit higher than for straights. So it is not just negative cultural push back as you suggested.

Star answers this elegantly. I'll refer you to his post.

Thanks for sharing your subjective and relative opinion.

You're welcome! Always happy to pitch in!

[Starlight]

I would love to see the trend lines over time. I would be willing to bet that we would see that, as trans gender gains wider acceptance, and as the counseling/psychiatric community develops better tools for dealing with gender-related issues, the rate will drop.

What data I've seen implies that is the case, but the data-quality of suicide-rate data is atrocious in general because you obviously can't interview someone post-suicide and in general government statistics regarding persons committing suicide do not record whether a person was transgender etc nor could the government easily find out even if it tried because a person may not have confided their transgenderism even to their closest friends and relatives. You can, of course, interview people who have survived suicide attempts, but then you're getting a random mix that includes plenty of people who didn't actually intend suicide and who instead intended the attempt to fail as a cry for help or to guilt-trip friends or family etc.

More generally speaking, it's a pretty well known and well-documented phenomena around the world that stigmization of minority groups is a huge factor on their stress and health.

[seer]

In the U.S., up until 1948, women only served in times of war - and only in support positions (nursing, clerical work, etc.). Over the years, some were enlisted as spies. As of 1948 they could serve full time in the military - but only in non-combat positions. Elizabeth Barrett was the first woman to hold a command in a combat zone (1972 Vietnam) - but I cannot find what she was in command of. We don't see women in combat roles into we get to the 1990s, as far as I can tell. So your statement is a little simplistic.

Well nursing and clerical work are good jobs for women in the military. Leave the fighting to the men.

Your repugnance is duly noted - and not that surprising. You might be surprised to find that you have probably showered with gay men many times and had no clue you were doing so. As far as I know, they have basically the same equipment you have!

Why would I want to shower with someone who is sexually attracted to me? I guess you would have no problem with men and women showering together.

Really, Seer? Do you think this kind of adolescent baiting is productive? I'll leave you to it.

You do seem to have a thing for MAo's and the Cultural Revolution. It's a recurring theme with you. Is there a particular reason this is your "go to" jibe?

It is simple, your mindset, and the mindset of the left, have all the hallmarks of totalitarianism. First, destroy the family, empower every kind of deviant behavior, destroy gender distinctions and gender roles. Make people more and more dependent on a central, controlling government. Create a hirearcy of grievance groups (intersectionality). Most of all undermine religion, so the collective can assume the role of God. At present we are in early days, but this cultural revolution will end in carnage.

[seer]

If a transgender person in Sweden knows that one in every 4 or 5 people they meet holds these type of negative and hateful views of them, they are hardly going to feel accepted, they are going to feel stressed. With each and every new person they meet, they would rightly wonder at the back of their mind "does this person hate me for who I am?" Of course this is stressful for them.

That is just stupid, if they can't deal with some people, a minority no less, not agreeing with their lifestyle then they are going to have a miserable life. They really are mentally unbalanced if they need that degree of acceptance to be happy, sounds like Dependent Personality Disorder.

[Starlight]

That is just stupid, if they can't deal with some people, a minority no less, not agreeing with their lifestyle then they are going to have a miserable life. They really are mentally unbalanced if they need that degree of acceptance to be happy, sounds like Dependent Personality Disorder.

Humans are social animals Seer. The thoughts, feelings, opinions and actions of others around us do deeply affect us all on both subconscious and conscious levels. In fact, the kind of complete mental isolation you describe from the views and opinions of others around a person, would itself be very close to being, or be, a mental disorder.