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  • #91
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I don't need to. I have two friends who are trans, one of whom has been through gender reassignment surgery. I've been through a fair amount of the transition with the latter. I have a pretty good feel for what she went through, how it impacts her, and the demands it places on her long-term. My request was not made for you to "prove it to me" because I don't honestly think you can. I would be willing to look at it if you could - but I think you would find (if you bothered to look) that your position does not have any supporting data for it. There is no data that I know of that suggests a trans person is more emotionally or psychologically unstable than any other human being - or that their hormone treatments make them a higher risk to anyone.
    "Personal examples are not evidence" -- carpedm9587

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Well if a bad guy breaks into your house one night, send your wife out to confront him.
      They won't have to "break" in. They can just walk in!

      Originally posted by seer View Post
      I'm sure she would appreciate your egalitarian chivalry. But let me ask you Carp, do you open the door for your wife? Who shovels the snow - her or you?
      I open the door for her if she has things in her hands. She opens it for me if I have things in mine. Generally, whoever gets to the door first opens it, and then usually lets the other person pass through first. As for the snow, we both shovel, depending on who is home and who wants to go out. She likes the exercise. But my son actually does the lion's share of it. For some odd reason, he enjoys it.

      Originally posted by seer View Post
      No Carp, I just think it is obvious that your egalitarian, identity politics are much darker than you realize. You are running head long into Animal Farm yet you think that you are inaugurating a Brave New World. It will end badly...
      Your gloom and doom predictions are noted, Seer. I don't share your concerns. When it comes to social issues, I am fairly far to the left. Definitely a liberal. I embrace changes that broaden inclusion and acceptance. I know that is not the "conservative way," and conservatives tend to fear change. I don't have that problem. Make changes, check outcomes, adjust, repeat. It's not a smooth or glitch free process, but I have no problem with the process itself.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        They won't have to "break" in. They can just walk in!

        I open the door for her if she has things in her hands. She opens it for me if I have things in mine. Generally, whoever gets to the door first opens it, and then usually lets the other person pass through first. As for the snow, we both shovel, depending on who is home and who wants to go out. She likes the exercise. But my son actually does the lion's share of it. For some odd reason, he enjoys it.
        Where you raised on a different planet?

        Your gloom and doom predictions are noted, Seer. I don't share your concerns. When it comes to social issues, I am fairly far to the left. Definitely a liberal. I embrace changes that broaden inclusion and acceptance. I know that is not the "conservative way," and conservatives tend to fear change. I don't have that problem. Make changes, check outcomes, adjust, repeat. It's not a smooth or glitch free process, but I have no problem with the process itself.
        Then you don't really understand identity politics and intersectionality which is spreading through the left. It is and will bifurcate the society. In other words the left is deconstructing traditional norms, Constitutional rights, and religion. To be replace with nothing but naked raw power, because they have nothing else.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          We are speaking of Sweden Carp, where one in four or five, have a negative view of tans, but they are not calling then scum. I mean if you commit suicide in Sweden because of this mild push back, you really do have other mental problems.
          I have never been to Sweden, Seer, have you? Only 16 years ago, Sweden passed a law to broaden the scope of their hate speech laws to include language against gay individuals. That suggests that such hate speech was common enough to rise to the level of getting the attention of the legislature in Sweden. 2009 Was when their board of health stopped classifying transvestism as an illness. That was only 10 years ago. Two years ago the laws added transgender to the list of discriminatory areas business were not permitted to engage in. You can find the history here. I have no idea how extensive the attitude against transgendered individuals in Sweden is, but the fact that legal action against this discrimination has happened within the last coupe of years suggests it is still a problem/issue.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          I think we both learned, very young, that a lot of people just aren't going to like or accept you - for what ever reason. You deal with it and have your own circle of friends and support.
          And therein lies the problem with so many on the right. The "buck up and take it" attitude precludes actually looking at any systemic of social dynamics that are discriminatory. There is no room for considering that sometimes hatred can be built into a culture and systemic. I'm sure we should just tell the Jews, "relax - some people hate you - just don't let it get to you." And the next time a Christian complains about being systemically persecuted by the laws and culture in our country, we should just respond with "buck up, mate - don't let it get to you. Some people are going to hate you - it's just life." And when white men complain that they are being victimized by accusations of racism, let's just respond with, "grow a spine, buck! You can't let what people think about you impact you!"

          It's easy to say to everyone else. It's a lot harder to deal with it when the hatred is aimed at you.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          And I'm certainly not going to change my views because I might hurt someone's feelings.
          Actually, when I find that I have hurt someone - feelings or otherwise - I try to do a double-check on my actions. I ask myself, "do I own any of this?" If I don't, then I let the other person deal with their feelings. If I do, then I try to make adjustments. Personally, I think we should all be doing that. But then again, those are just my relative/subjective views.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Not that I would go out of my way to do so. Like I said we have a trans woman in my small shop, she wants to be called by a male name - I do, out of simple courtesy.
          Well - that's a step in the right direction!

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Yes and I think I already responded.
          I noticed, You should read it again. Your response was not particularly good, IMO.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            "Personal examples are not evidence" -- carpedm9587
            You need to keep the statements I've made in their proper context, Sparko. Personal experience is indeed a way of getting information. Indeed, it's the only way of getting information. The statement you quoted was originally in the context of taking a personal experience and then generalizing it to make a statement about what is happening in a substantially larger group. If I claimed, "all trans people do X" because I happen to know a couple trans people who do X, your quote would be appropriate. If I say, "everyone got a great tax break because I saved $1300," the statement would be appropriate.

            If I say, "I know something about what trans people can go through because I have been through the process," that is no different than saying, "I know something about the experience of childbirth, having been through three of them myself." We learn from experience. There is nothing wrong with citing personal experience as a source of our learning. There is something wrong with assuming that everyone else has the same personal experience we have, or making statistical claims on the basis of one example.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Where you raised on a different planet?
              Hang on, let me check...

              Nope - birth certificate lists a city in New Hampshire! Of course, it is possible I was born on a different planet and then moved here before the age of cognition, but I don't think it's likely.

              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Then you don't really understand identity politics and intersectionality which is spreading through the left. It is and will bifurcate the society. In other words the left is deconstructing traditional norms, Constitutional rights, and religion. To be replace with nothing but naked raw power, because they have nothing else.
              The "identity politics" mantra from so many on the right is a canard I don't pay a lot of attention to. Frankly, too many on the right have too many boogie men. It isn't the process of seeking to be more inclusive that is bifurcating society - it is the resistance of people like you who don't want to see that inclusion happen, and paint all of those who do as "the enemy" and "evil" and so forth. Tell me, Seer, did you see an evil man on the other side of the table when we had dinner? Did you see someone who is the harbinger of the doom of our nation? Or did you perhaps just see another man, with different political views, also raising a family, doing a job, and seeking to find the best life has to offer moment by moment.

              You have an amazingly negative view of your fellow man - or perhaps just those fellow men who don't happen to agree with your political views. Perhaps you've spent too much time listening to the rantings of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity and Newt Gingrich? Come up for air, Seer - the world is not as hostile as you seem to want to paint it. Years ago, our friend Mr. Gingrich sought to break the stranglehold Democrats had on Congress by turning the comfortable world of bipartisanship into a culture war between the parties. He was amazingly successful - and you have apparently been sucked in lock, stock, and barrel.

              Look around. Peel those hate-oriented blinders off. Shake off the mewlings of the Wormtongues of your party. You can do a lot better than the vitriol you are spewing here. There are actually good people on BOTH sides of the political divide, seeking to make this country, and this world, a better place. Find it in yourself to join in, instead of casting stones at what you fear.

              Or not. The world will move on with or without you or I.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                You need to keep the statements I've made in their proper context, Sparko. Personal experience is indeed a way of getting information. Indeed, it's the only way of getting information. The statement you quoted was originally in the context of taking a personal experience and then generalizing it to make a statement about what is happening in a substantially larger group. If I claimed, "all trans people do X" because I happen to know a couple trans people who do X, your quote would be appropriate. If I say, "everyone got a great tax break because I saved $1300," the statement would be appropriate.

                If I say, "I know something about what trans people can go through because I have been through the process," that is no different than saying, "I know something about the experience of childbirth, having been through three of them myself." We learn from experience. There is nothing wrong with citing personal experience as a source of our learning. There is something wrong with assuming that everyone else has the same personal experience we have, or making statistical claims on the basis of one example.
                I know Carp. When it is YOUR personal experiences then they count and we have to accept them as evidence. When it is OUR personal experiences, then they don't count.



                You dismissed One Bad Pig's experiences but yours totally count.
                Last edited by Sparko; 02-22-2019, 09:36 AM.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  I have never been to Sweden, Seer, have you? Only 16 years ago, Sweden passed a law to broaden the scope of their hate speech laws to include language against gay individuals. That suggests that such hate speech was common enough to rise to the level of getting the attention of the legislature in Sweden. 2009 Was when their board of health stopped classifying transvestism as an illness. That was only 10 years ago. Two years ago the laws added transgender to the list of discriminatory areas business were not permitted to engage in. You can find the history here. I have no idea how extensive the attitude against transgendered individuals in Sweden is, but the fact that legal action against this discrimination has happened within the last coupe of years suggests it is still a problem/issue.
                  I was going by Star's link, and only one in 4 or 5 had a negative view transgenders, and it is probably less for gays. As far as hate speech laws, which are totalitarian in nature, just more political correctness running a muck. I'm sure as a good freedom loving American you would be against such laws as this.

                  England:

                  On 13 October 2001, Harry Hammond, an evangelist, was arrested and charged under section 5 of the Public Order Act (1986) because he had displayed to people in Bournemouth a large sign bearing the words "Jesus Gives Peace, Jesus is Alive, Stop Immorality, Stop Homosexuality, Stop Lesbianism, Jesus is Lord". In April 2002, a magistrate convicted Hammond, fined him £300, and ordered him to pay costs of £395.


                  And therein lies the problem with so many on the right. The "buck up and take it" attitude precludes actually looking at any systemic of social dynamics that are discriminatory. There is no room for considering that sometimes hatred can be built into a culture and systemic. I'm sure we should just tell the Jews, "relax - some people hate you - just don't let it get to you." And the next time a Christian complains about being systemically persecuted by the laws and culture in our country, we should just respond with "buck up, mate - don't let it get to you. Some people are going to hate you - it's just life." And when white men complain that they are being victimized by accusations of racism, let's just respond with, "grow a spine, buck! You can't let what people think about you impact you!"
                  But it is just life Carp. And when did disagreeing with a life style turn into hate? If a Christian or Jew or Muslim believes that homosexuality is immoral does that automatically turn into hate? And yes just look at speech codes and safe spaces on college campuses - we are creating snowflakes. And I'm not talking about causing some one physical harm, that should be stopped.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    The "identity politics" mantra from so many on the right is a canard I don't pay a lot of attention to. Frankly, too many on the right have too many boogie men. It isn't the process of seeking to be more inclusive that is bifurcating society - it is the resistance of people like you who don't want to see that inclusion happen, and paint all of those who do as "the enemy" and "evil" and so forth. Tell me, Seer, did you see an evil man on the other side of the table when we had dinner? Did you see someone who is the harbinger of the doom of our nation? Or did you perhaps just see another man, with different political views, also raising a family, doing a job, and seeking to find the best life has to offer moment by moment.
                    Carp, you are not yet that far down the road to be called evil.

                    You have an amazingly negative view of your fellow man - or perhaps just those fellow men who don't happen to agree with your political views. Perhaps you've spent too much time listening to the rantings of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity and Newt Gingrich? Come up for air, Seer - the world is not as hostile as you seem to want to paint it. Years ago, our friend Mr. Gingrich sought to break the stranglehold Democrats had on Congress by turning the comfortable world of bipartisanship into a culture war between the parties. He was amazingly successful - and you have apparently been sucked in lock, stock, and barrel.
                    Right, I read history.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      You dismissed One Bad Pig's experiences but yours totally count.
                      Actually - I did exactly what I said in my previous post. OBP was making a sweeping statement about trans people on the basis of his experience with a handful. My comment was about knowing what a trans person has to do medically on the basis of that experience. There is a significant difference between the two. As I said, if you find me making a statistical claim about a large group on the basis of one or two experiences, you should call me on it because that WOULD be me doing exactly what I don't accept from others. But a statement made in one context does not necessarily apply in other contexts. You are misapplying my statement.
                      Last edited by carpedm9587; 02-22-2019, 10:16 AM.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        I was going by Star's link, and only one in 4 or 5 had a negative view transgenders, and it is probably less for gays. As far as hate speech laws, which are totalitarian in nature, just more political correctness running a muck. I'm sure as a good freedom loving American you would be against such laws as this.
                        On that I struggle. My respect for "free speech" runs in opposition to the right we have to happiness and freedom from persecution. At some point, as a society, we have to reach a point where we say, "that is simply not acceptable." It would be nice if it were done socially rather than legally, but some people are stubbornly insistent on their right to hate and to make the lives of others miserable. I have strongly mixed feelings about this issue. I can't say I know exactly how I feel or would proceed.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        England:

                        On 13 October 2001, Harry Hammond, an evangelist, was arrested and charged under section 5 of the Public Order Act (1986) because he had displayed to people in Bournemouth a large sign bearing the words "Jesus Gives Peace, Jesus is Alive, Stop Immorality, Stop Homosexuality, Stop Lesbianism, Jesus is Lord". In April 2002, a magistrate convicted Hammond, fined him £300, and ordered him to pay costs of £395.
                        And that's pretty much a good example of what I'm talking about. When people hide their bigotry and prejudice behind religion, I struggle. The same message could have been "Jesus Gives Peace, Jesus is Alive, Stop Immorality, Jesus is Lord." But as soon as that "immorality" razor is turned on people on the basis of their membership in a group, we cross into a form of hate speech. Where does the right for religious freedom end and the right of a person not to be persecuted begin? There is a line there somewhere, and most of us simply disagree on where to put that line.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        But it is just life Carp. And when did disagreeing with a life style turn into hate?
                        When it targets a group on the basis of their nature.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        If a Christian or Jew or Muslim believes that homosexuality is immoral does that automatically turn into hate?
                        Yes.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        And yes just look at speech codes and safe spaces on college campuses - we are creating snowflakes.
                        I agree that the restrictions on some campuses have become too much. On the other hand, I think the students have a right to say, "we don't want that here." Freedom of Speech is about the government not being able to restrict what someone says on the basis of its content. It does not mean that every business and individual has to welcome any speech in any context.

                        As for "snowflakes," every time I hear that word I cannot help but to

                        People are really good at creating buzz words and insults they can toss around at will. Most are devoid of any real meaning. Snowflakes is one of those, IMO.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        And I'm not talking about causing some one physical harm, that should be stopped.
                        Agreed.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Carp, you are not yet that far down the road to be called evil.
                          Oh I think you would be surprised, Seer. After all, I haven't told you everything...

                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Right, I read history.
                          So do I. For every evil person and evil act, there are dozens of good ones. When evil gains power, good usually rises up in response. It doesn't always happen quickly - but it eventually happens. After all, we're still here. Most of the world is at peace. Most of the world is people living decent lives, helping one another, and pitching in when there is a need. The worst atrocity in human history doesn't put a dent in the vast billions of good people doing good things day after day.

                          It's the evil that gets the news - no doubt about it. And we all have the capacity for evil. But we are not, fundamentally, evil. We are fundamentally good - and helpful - and loving - and we are flawed and imperfect.

                          You really do need to step away from your Wormtongues, Seer - and see the world from a more uplifting place. Even Trump will eventually be gone - hopefully sooner rather than later. And if he is replaced by another f his ilk - there are other countries and a whole wide world to enjoy.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • [QUOTE=carpedm9587;616181]
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            You dismissed One Bad Pig's experiences but yours totally count./QUOTE]

                            Actually - I did exactly what I said in my previous post. OBP was making a sweeping statement about trans people on the basis of his experience with a handful. My comment was about knowing what a trans person has to do medically on the basis of that experience. There is a significant difference between the two. As I said, if you find me making a statistical claim about a large group on the basis of one or two experiences, you should call me on it because that WOULD be me doing exactly what I don't accept from others. But a statement made in one context does not necessarily apply in other contexts. You are misapplying my statement.
                            Your constant refrain is "personal examples are not evidence" over and over, yet you use them yourself and expect people to accept your experiences as valid. Same as your arguments about morality. It's all relative and subjective except your own.

                            doublestandardsjpg.jpg

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Your constant refrain is "personal examples are not evidence" over and over, yet you use them yourself and expect people to accept your experiences as valid. Same as your arguments about morality. It's all relative and subjective except your own.
                              Context, Sparko. Pay attention to context.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                On that I struggle. My respect for "free speech" runs in opposition to the right we have to happiness and freedom from persecution. At some point, as a society, we have to reach a point where we say, "that is simply not acceptable." It would be nice if it were done socially rather than legally, but some people are stubbornly insistent on their right to hate and to make the lives of others miserable. I have strongly mixed feelings about this issue. I can't say I know exactly how I feel or would proceed.
                                See Carp, you asked me if I thought you were evil, if you go down this road then yes you would be.

                                And that's pretty much a good example of what I'm talking about. When people hide their bigotry and prejudice behind religion, I struggle. The same message could have been "Jesus Gives Peace, Jesus is Alive, Stop Immorality, Jesus is Lord." But as soon as that "immorality" razor is turned on people on the basis of their membership in a group, we cross into a form of hate speech. Where does the right for religious freedom end and the right of a person not to be persecuted begin? There is a line there somewhere, and most of us simply disagree on where to put that line.

                                When it targets a group on the basis of their nature.
                                So if Christians or Muslims or orthodox Jew publicly proclaim that homosexuality is immoral or sin, that in your mind equals hate? Even if we do nothing to cause physical harm?

                                Yes.
                                So if I went around saying that adultery or fornication was immoral and sin, that would equal hate for adulterers and fornicators?

                                I agree that the restrictions on some campuses have become too much. On the other hand, I think the students have a right to say, "we don't want that here." Freedom of Speech is about the government not being able to restrict what someone says on the basis of its content. It does not mean that every business and individual has to welcome any speech in any context.
                                Actually if it is a public university they don't have the right to prevent certain speakers based on content.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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