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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    I see your point, so I will amend
    'Even (if/when a person is in possession of) the inescapable evidence that God exists, (that evidence) doesn't answer the question of ...'
    Tab - you say this as if the evidence of god's existence is not only inescapable - but it is compelling. The former I acknowledge. There are many pieces of evidence that point to the possibility of a god and only a fool would deny them. For example, the fact that this concept is so widely held is a piece of said evidence.

    The latter I resist. If I did not, I would not be atheist. I would probably still be Christian - or some form of theist. I find the evidence AGAINST the actual existence of such a being to be far more compelling. Indeed, I think it pretty clearly points to the idea of gods being a construct of the human mind.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      Tab - you say this as if the evidence of god's existence is not only inescapable - but it is compelling. The former I acknowledge. There are many pieces of evidence that point to the possibility of a god and only a fool would deny them. For example, the fact that this concept is so widely held is a piece of said evidence.

      The latter I resist. If I did not, I would not be atheist. I would probably still be Christian - or some form of theist. I find the evidence AGAINST the actual existence of such a being to be far more compelling. Indeed, I think it pretty clearly points to the idea of gods being a construct of the human mind.
      I consider the evidence provided through witnessing telekinesis, and prophecy (both forecast of future and knowing a person's inner thought (even on a first meeting)), in circumstances where absolutely no possibility of chicanery exists, to be compelling evidence of the existence of God. I consider further that anyone rational, in possession of similar evidence, would draw the same conclusion.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        I consider the evidence provided through witnessing telekinesis, and prophecy (both forecast of future and knowing a person's inner thought (even on a first meeting)), in circumstances where absolutely no possibility of chicanery exists, to be compelling evidence of the existence of God. I consider further that anyone rational, in possession of similar evidence, would draw the same conclusion.
        Well... not so much. First, telekinesis has nothing necessarily to do with god's, if it exists at all. We live in a universe were physical action at a distance is clearly possible (i.e., magnetism, gravity, spooky action at a distance, quantum entanglement, etc.). There is no reason I can think of to claim that telekinesis demonstrates the existence of a god. At best, it demonstrates (again, if it can be shown) the existence of a force we currently do not understand. We didn't used to understand magnetism either - and now we do (sort of). I do not rush to fill gaps in my knowing with "god did it."

        As for prophecy, I have never encountered ANY prophecy that met the criteria for true prophecy. Every single one has involved chicanery, misunderstanding, or assumptions that cannot be supported by the facts. But again, even if someone DID have the ability to "see into the future," we now know that time itself is fluid and relative. So, again, we don't have to jump to "god did it."

        I'm not finding this a very compelling argument - and I don't think you can make the case that I am "irrational."
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          Well... not so much. First, telekinesis has nothing necessarily to do with god's, if it exists at all. We live in a universe were physical action at a distance is clearly possible (i.e., magnetism, gravity, spooky action at a distance, quantum entanglement, etc.). There is no reason I can think of to claim that telekinesis demonstrates the existence of a god. At best, it demonstrates (again, if it can be shown) the existence of a force we currently do not understand. We didn't used to understand magnetism either - and now we do (sort of). I do not rush to fill gaps in my knowing with "god did it."

          As for prophecy, I have never encountered ANY prophecy that met the criteria for true prophecy. Every single one has involved chicanery, misunderstanding, or assumptions that cannot be supported by the facts. But again, even if someone DID have the ability to "see into the future," we now know that time itself is fluid and relative. So, again, we don't have to jump to "god did it."

          I'm not finding this a very compelling argument - and I don't think you can make the case that I am "irrational."
          That almost all claims of prophecy are bogus is true enough. That a given person might never have encountered a prophecy that wasn't bogus is (I won't say "certain") beyond doubt. Theoretically, it may be that telekinesis might point to some unknown natural law, or to the existence of the supernatural without any god involved (something along the lines of "the force", perhaps).
          When a person has observed such things for himself, and is told by the person doing them that it is a demonstration of God's intervention in the world ... it is a matter of choosing between the word of a person who has demonstrated that he knows what he is talking about, and that of someone who can't demonstrate that such things are even possible. The person who does them might also admit that God is not the only source of such phenomena - but that there is at least the theoretical possibility that other supernatural entities can do the like.
          I do however state, with certainty, that it would be wholly irrational and unreasonable to expect the same assessment from a person who had not been a direct witness of such things.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            That almost all claims of prophecy are bogus is true enough.
            All that I know of.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            That a given person might never have encountered a prophecy that wasn't bogus is (I won't say "certain") beyond doubt.
            Not sure - but I think we are agreeing.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Theoretically, it may be that telekinesis might point to some unknown natural law, or to the existence of the supernatural without any god involved (something along the lines of "the force", perhaps).
            I don't jump to the supernatural until I have exhausted the natural. It would take something explicitly violating known natural principles. By definition, the supernatural will not be subject to proof.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            When a person has observed such things for himself, and is told by the person doing them that it is a demonstration of God's intervention in the world ... it is a matter of choosing between the word of a person who has demonstrated that he knows what he is talking about, and that of someone who can't demonstrate that such things are even possible. The person who does them might also admit that God is not the only source of such phenomena - but that there is at least the theoretical possibility that other supernatural entities can do the like.
            The supernatural is always "theoretically" possible - because there is no way to definitively rule it out. There is also no way to substantiate it, creating a bit of a conundrum.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            I do however state, with certainty, that it would be wholly irrational and unreasonable to expect the same assessment from a person who had not been a direct witness of such things.
            I'll leave the "certainty" component aside, having already responded to it. The "direct witness" piece is what caught my attention. There are a lot of people who have given me "direct witness" testimony of one thing or another, calling this or that a miracle. Usually, it find them to be badly misunderstanding probability, or ignoring the many ways deception can thwart the best "witness."
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • I can state with absolute certainty that the matters I speak of are not subject to any possibility whatever of deception.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                I can state with absolute certainty that the matters I speak of are not subject to any possibility whatever of deception.
                Yeah - well you know what I think about "absolute certainty." You'll have to show how that is possible first.

                Meanwhile, Tab, I don't think I'll be reversing my worldview on the basis of the absolute claims of someone I have never met and do not know - save for a few online posts.

                But I've done dinner with folks here before.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Yeah - well you know what I think about "absolute certainty." You'll have to show how that is possible first.
                  I'll leave it to you to work out how a person might be able to declare with absolute certainty that such matters are factual. Not that I am asking you to accept that they are factual - just that you treat the matter as a hypothetical.

                  Meanwhile, Tab, I don't think I'll be reversing my worldview on the basis of the absolute claims of someone I have never met and do not know - save for a few online posts.

                  But I've done dinner with folks here before.
                  As I said before (or at least alluded to), it would be wholly unreasonable to expect such a response in the circumstances that you have (correctly) noted.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    I'll leave it to you to work out how a person might be able to declare with absolute certainty that such matters are factual. Not that I am asking you to accept that they are factual - just that you treat the matter as a hypothetical.
                    As I noted, Tab. I cannot conceive of any way to achieve absolute certainty about anything.

                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    As I said before (or at least alluded to), it would be wholly unreasonable to expect such a response in the circumstances that you have (correctly) noted.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      As I noted, Tab. I cannot conceive of any way to achieve absolute certainty about anything.



                      Scenario: You are watching a film of someone performing a highly unlikely (but not entirely impossible) action. How do you know - beyond all possible doubt - that no special effects were used in producing the film, and that nothing in it has been photoshopped?
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Scenario: You are watching a film of someone performing a highly unlikely (but not entirely impossible) action. How do you know - beyond all possible doubt - that no special effects were used in producing the film, and that nothing in it has been photoshopped?
                        I don't.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          I don't.
                          People tend to kick themselves when they realise that there is an obvious way.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            People tend to kick themselves when they realise that there is an obvious way.
                            And that is...
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • To make it easier
                              Who can know - beyond all possible doubt - whether or not this story is true?
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                To make it easier
                                Who can know - beyond all possible doubt - whether or not this story is true?
                                Tab - I have no idea... do you have a point...?
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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