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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    But what about corporal Klinger?
    In the very first episode he was in he tried to kill Major Frank "Ferret-Face" Burns with a hand grenade

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    • #32
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      In the very first episode he was in he tried to kill Major Frank "Ferret-Face" Burns with a hand grenade
      Yeah but they didn't kick him out of the army! No matter how crazy he was!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        And many mental disorders will keep you out of the military. And if I follow your logic species dysphoria is not a problem either. Sorry, if you feel that you are a cat, or a biological male who feels he is a woman then there is something really wrong with you.
        As far as I know, psychology and psychiatry do not place "species dysphoria" and "gender dysphoria" on an equal plane, so I don't either. You appear to be trying to put all mental illnesses on the same plane. IMO, if a psychiatrist says "nothing urgent to see here," I'm going to accept their training and expertise and not sweat about it.

        At the end of the day - the only relevant question is "can you do the job?" I have no evidence to suggest that a trans person is incapable of doing the job - hence they should not be excluded. If you know of a reason why they cannot do the job - as a class - by all mean put it forward.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          But what about corporal Klinger?
          Exactly!




          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            As far as I know, psychology and psychiatry do not place "species dysphoria" and "gender dysphoria" on an equal plane, so I don't either. You appear to be trying to put all mental illnesses on the same plane. IMO, if a psychiatrist says "nothing urgent to see here," I'm going to accept their training and expertise and not sweat about it.
            Do you know they don't place them on the same level? But what, in kind, is the difference? Both are divorced from reality.

            At the end of the day - the only relevant question is "can you do the job?" I have no evidence to suggest that a trans person is incapable of doing the job - hence they should not be excluded. If you know of a reason why they cannot do the job - as a class - by all mean put it forward.
            Yes I'm suggesting that the mentally ill should not be in the military.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              As far as I know, psychology and psychiatry do not place "species dysphoria" and "gender dysphoria" on an equal plane, so I don't either. You appear to be trying to put all mental illnesses on the same plane. IMO, if a psychiatrist says "nothing urgent to see here," I'm going to accept their training and expertise and not sweat about it.

              At the end of the day - the only relevant question is "can you do the job?" I have no evidence to suggest that a trans person is incapable of doing the job - hence they should not be excluded. If you know of a reason why they cannot do the job - as a class - by all mean put it forward.
              I think the argument I heard is that they are on medications and ongoing treatments that cause a burden on the army. They also cause a distraction among the troops, especially if they have not undergone sexual reassignment surgery. Where do you put a physical male who identifies as a woman? With men? with women?

              From what I understand you can't even join the military if you are diabetic. And if you develop diabetes you can be discharged. A transgender is just as dependent on ongoing medication as a diabetic would be.
              Last edited by Sparko; 02-21-2019, 11:40 AM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Do you know they don't place them on the same level? But what, in kind, is the difference? Both are divorced from reality.
                There are many things humans do that are "divorced from reality," Seer. They don't all rise to the same level. Heck - I think your belief in a god is "divorced from reality." I don't think you're mentally ill. The person who thinks they can chain smoke with impunity for 40 years is "divorced from reality." The person in denial about the sexual trauma they suffered is "divorced from reality." Being "divorced from reality" does not necessarily make one unfit to serve. The question is, does their condition prohibit them from doing their duty as a serving member of the military.

                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Yes I'm suggesting that the mentally ill should not be in the military.
                Mental illness is not "binary." It's a continuum from profound to innocuous. The question is, where do we put the line. To me, where we put the line is simple: does their condition prevent them doing the job, or in any way place their comrades in harm's way. When you can show this to be the case, then I will agree that the person in question should not serve.

                And apparently there are a fair number of current and former military leaders who see the policy of inclusion as the best course for the military: accepting all people and making decisions on the basis of individual capabilities. Indeed, after having actually served for over two years, I can find no reported incident of the trans nature of any member of the military being an obstacle to doing the job.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  There are many things humans do that are "divorced from reality," Seer. They don't all rise to the same level. Heck - I think your belief in a god is "divorced from reality." I don't think you're mentally ill. The person who thinks they can chain smoke with impunity for 40 years is "divorced from reality." The person in denial about the sexual trauma they suffered is "divorced from reality." Being "divorced from reality" does not necessarily make one unfit to serve. The question is, does their condition prohibit them from doing their duty as a serving member of the military.
                  Why wouldn't gender dysphoria rise to the same level as species dysphoria? What is the difference in kind?


                  Mental illness is not "binary." It's a continuum from profound to innocuous. The question is, where do we put the line. To me, where we put the line is simple: does their condition prevent them doing the job, or in any way place their comrades in harm's way. When you can show this to be the case, then I will agree that the person in question should not serve.
                  There is zero military reason to even test your position.

                  And apparently there are a fair number of current and former military leaders who see the policy of inclusion as the best course for the military: accepting all people and making decisions on the basis of individual capabilities. Indeed, after having actually served for over two years, I can find no reported incident of the trans nature of any member of the military being an obstacle to doing the job.
                  And I'm sure we could find an equal number military men who would disagree. And two years is not enough to to make any claim, especially with so few transgenders actually in the military.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    I think the argument I heard is that they are on medications and ongoing treatments that cause a burden on the army.
                    That has been largely debunked.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    They also cause a distraction among the troops, especially if they have not undergone sexual reassignment surgery.
                    The same excuse was used about women - and then about gays. I see no reason to think it is any more likely to be true here.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Where do you put a physical male who identifies as a woman? With men? with women?
                    That is a decision a military unit can make - and apparently has been making for a few years now with no reported problems that I can find.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    From what I understand you can't even join the military if you are diabetic. And if you develop diabetes you can be discharged. A transgender is just as dependent on ongoing medication as a diabetic would be.
                    Diabetes is a potentially disabling condition with MANY side effects (eyesight, strength, etc.). The lack of medication (if they are Type I) is life threatening. The dietary restrictions (both Type I and Type II) would create an incredible burden on a field unit. I know of no such dietary restrictions for a trans person, and the medication you are talking about is (AFAICT) hormone treatment. It is not, AFAIK, a life threatening medication if absent.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      That has been largely debunked.
                      Bull, from your link: $8.4 million out of an estimated Defense Department expense of $50 billion. That’s approximately 0.017%. We would not be spending that money in the first place if they weren't there. And that number is only going to grow as more trans enlist.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Why wouldn't gender dysphoria rise to the same level as species dysphoria? What is the difference in kind?
                        You would have to ask the medical experts that question. The treatment lists are very different between the two. And there is the rather obvious truth that someone who is gender dysphoric still sees themselves as human but simply identifies with a different gender. Someone who is species dysphoric will have differing "symptoms" depending on the specific species and the degree of involvement. Frankly, I have the same opinion about service and species dysphoria as I have about gender dysphoria or depression or substance addiction. Evaluate the person, determine the severity, establish if it is an inhibitor to doing the job, and then admit or reject.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        There is zero military reason to even test your position.
                        There is zero military reason to bar individuals from service on the basis of you "not liking" their particular state in life.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        And I'm sure we could find an equal number military men who would disagree. And two years is not enough to to make any claim, especially with so few transgenders actually in the military.
                        I'm sure there are many military people who think as you do. When I hear people say "include" and others say "exclude," I lean to "include" unless someone can show cause. As for "so few," the estimates were between 1 and 6 thousand trans people in the military, so I agree its a fraction of the workforce, but not a tiny number. And if we can have a situation for two years with few (if any?) reported problems - then what is the rationale for reversing it, other than "Donald wants to energize his base?" I tend to fix problems when it is clear we have one. No one has demonstrated that trans gendered people in the military are a problem.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          You would have to ask the medical experts that question. The treatment lists are very different between the two. And there is the rather obvious truth that someone who is gender dysphoric still sees themselves as human but simply identifies with a different gender. Someone who is species dysphoric will have differing "symptoms" depending on the specific species and the degree of involvement. Frankly, I have the same opinion about service and species dysphoria as I have about gender dysphoria or depression or substance addiction. Evaluate the person, determine the severity, establish if it is an inhibitor to doing the job, and then admit or reject.



                          There is zero military reason to bar individuals from service on the basis of you "not liking" their particular state in life.



                          I'm sure there are many military people who think as you do. When I hear people say "include" and others say "exclude," I lean to "include" unless someone can show cause. As for "so few," the estimates were between 1 and 6 thousand trans people in the military, so I agree its a fraction of the workforce, but not a tiny number. And if we can have a situation for two years with few (if any?) reported problems - then what is the rationale for reversing it, other than "Donald wants to energize his base?" I tend to fix problems when it is clear we have one. No one has demonstrated that trans gendered people in the military are a problem.
                          Well thankfully the are are no longer able to serve. They should apply to Google, they like that kind of thing over there.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Bull, from your link: $8.4 million out of an estimated Defense Department expense of $50 billion. That’s approximately 0.017%. We would not be spending that money in the first place if they weren't there. And that number is only going to grow as more trans enlist.
                            The argument "we would not pay those costs if they were not there" can be applied to any group of people with medical costs. It's not a very compelling argument. The cost comes to an average between about $1.3K and $6.6K per person (depending on the actual number of trans people in the military). If that cost gets us 1-6K good service people willing to offer their life for our country, I'd say it's a decent investment and I honor them for being willing to serve.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Well thankfully the are are no longer able to serve. They should apply to Google, they like that kind of thing over there.
                              Sadly - they are not able to serve - for now. When Trump is gone, I have confidence that the situation will again be reversed and these people will be thanked for their service, instead of being vilified for wanting to serve.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                The argument "we would not pay those costs if they were not there" can be applied to any group of people with medical costs. It's not a very compelling argument. The cost comes to an average between about $1.3K and $6.6K per person (depending on the actual number of trans people in thee military). If that cost gets us 1-6K good service people willing to offer their life for our country, I'd say it's a decent investment and I honor them for being willing to serve.
                                Tell me who is let into the military who already has on going medical problems that require on going medical attention? Be specific please.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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