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Oregon lawmakers seek to lower voting age in state to 16

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  • #16
    As an Oregonian, I'm not keen on this idea. They're not adults and not fully developed yet the Democrats want them to have the vote to change laws? It's asinine.
    I am Punkinhead.

    "I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"

    ~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....

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    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Why would we want uniformed people voting?
      Well that was pretty much the argument back in the day as to why only educated rich white landowners should vote.

      For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

      After all, women weren't sufficiently educated, so they obviously didn't need the vote. The blacks were... well, the less said the better really... obviously they shouldn't vote. Even among men the general masses were ignorant, so obviously they shouldn't vote. Voting should obviously be restricted to the elites in society who Knew What Was Best For Everyone.


      Only, the thing was, it turned out that when voting was restricted to a certain group, quite a number of that group would vote in such a way as to further their own interests at the expense of others, whose interests they didn't necessarily even bother to learn about. Politicians voted for by educated rich white landowners and who knew their base comprised of this group, would, coincidentally, pass policies to benefit that group at the expense of others. This was a major reason that simply giving women the vote was so important for the advancement of women - not so much because women suddenly voted en masse for any particular policies but because politicians knew that they could potentially do so and knew that they themselves couldn't publicly promote for or advocate any anti-women policies or else women would all vote for their political opponent and thus the politician would get voted out of office. So the national policies and politics changed as a result of politicians knowing that women could vote and thus the politicians realizing it was in their personal interest to pay attention in general to the interests of women in general and to stop promoting any anti-women policies or pro-male policies.

      So a group doesn't necessarily need to be well-educated or knowledgeable to benefit from the ability to vote, because it is not their votes per se that change the political discourse, it is the fact that politicians know this group could vote against them en masse if sufficiently antagonized and the politicians including that in their political calculations and choosing to have policies that at least on face value appear to represent at least some of the group's interest and are not openly hostile to the group. Voters don't need to be educated or to understand that process for it to happen.
      Last edited by Starlight; 02-19-2019, 07:49 PM.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ke7ejx View Post
        As an Oregonian, I'm not keen on this idea. They're not adults and not fully developed yet the Democrats want them to have the vote to change laws? It's asinine.
        Maybe the Dems haven't grown up yet, either.

        want to be a liberal.jpg


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ke7ejx View Post
          They're not adults and not fully developed yet the Democrats want them to have the vote to change laws?
          It's not as if the proposal is to appoint a random 16 year old to set the laws.

          It's simply to add to Oregon's existing 2.8 million registered voters, an additional 0.05 million possible voters. Given relatively low rates of voter turnout among young people, you'd be looking at a maximum possible 1% change to any given election result if all these new voters were to simultaneously vote for the same candidate, which seems absurdly unlikely. So you're looking at perhaps a 0.1%-0.5% shift in election results at most. The chances that it ever changes the outcome of any election are probably fairly low.

          Thus, to my mind, the advantages of this proposal are not that it will change any election result whatsoever, but rather that (a) it will get young people involved in the political and civic process at a younger age hopefully leading to greater civic engagement by them and them learning more about politics; and (b) that politicians will consider the interests of these young people when formulating their policies just as they do all their other voters because they know these young people could potentially vote against them - one probable effect of this will be that politicians would take a great interest in the tertiary education system and in the crippling student loan debts that the US is currently loading down its young people with.
          Last edited by Starlight; 02-19-2019, 08:01 PM.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            What's wrong with uniforms?

            They can even vote from overseas!
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              They can even vote from overseas!
              But! Uniforms!


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                At least we don't eat Tide pods on a dare.

                [ATTACH=CONFIG]35203[/ATTACH]
                Oi, us millennials might be lazy and self-entitled, but the eating Tide Pod idiocy is entirely on the Generation Z blockheads, not us.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  Out of personal amusement I took a few practice tests.

                  I got 58/60. Guess I'm automatically a US citizen now?
                  19/20. Couldn't remember who wrote the federalist papers. Also thought a couple of the questions were more propaganda than fact.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    No, it means you are informed, unlike a lot of young people in this country. Why would we want uniformed people voting?
                    Because you don't want to annoy the military.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      Well that was pretty much the argument back in the day as to why only educated rich white landowners should vote.
                      Back in the day they said nothing about rich or educated landowners, just land/property owners. And again, it does a country no good to have ignorant voters. And I blame in on the education system. Growing up we we taught civics, the history of the country, the branches of government, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, the Declaration, etc... I mean Star, in what other field or endeavor would you support ignorance as a guiding principle?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        But! Uniforms!
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          it does a country no good to have ignorant voters. And I blame in on the education system. Growing up we we taught civics, the history of the country, the branches of government, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, the Declaration, etc... I mean Star, in what other field or endeavor would you support ignorance as a guiding principle?
                          As you know seer, I am quite pro education in general and chose to spend many years at university. I am all for educating voters, and I do not 'support ignorance' in any way shape or form.

                          However, restricting the ability to vote to the educated is quite a different matter entirely. Consider that the elected politicians themselves will generally be educated even though their voters may not be - representative democracy is not about the uneducated voters making the decisions, it is about them electing people to make decisions for them. So uneducated voters does not at all mean uneducated people will actually be making the decisions.

                          But one thing I have learned from studying politics is that intelligent and educated people who become politicians are as subject to incentives and values as any other person. Great intelligence and education, while it allows politicians who have it to understand the decisions they are making better and better predict the consequences of those decisions, it doesn't in and of itself tell you which group of people they will choose to benefit with their policies or why. It doesn't tell you whether they will choose to take the lobbyist money in exchange for doing the lobbyist's bidding, or whether they will select policies that benefit the rich at the expense of the poor or vice versa. So I am wary of "technocracy" - the idea that if only we put the smart people in charge of things, it will be great - being smart might be a great quality in someone making the laws but it is far from the only necessary quality. If we put smart people in charge with no other incentives, over time what would probably tend to happen would be that those smart people would write the laws so as to benefit themselves, at the expense of everyone else. Democracy serves as a key counterbalance to this, because the politicians have to convince the people that they have the voters interests at heart. The closer the voters are to the total population, rather than some subset of it (white male landowners etc), the more the smart politicians will tend toward producing policies that benefit the total populace rather than just themselves or some subset.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            However, restricting the ability to vote to the educated is quite a different matter entirely. Consider that the elected politicians themselves will generally be educated even though their voters may not be - representative democracy is not about the uneducated voters making the decisions, it is about them electing people to make decisions for them. So uneducated voters does not at all mean uneducated people will actually be making the decisions.
                            Except uneducated votes are easier to fool and hoodwink, by said politicians. Just look at Bernie supporters...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              Out of personal amusement I took a few practice tests.

                              I got 58/60. Guess I'm automatically a US citizen now?
                              I went to your link. I think this explains your score...

                              500.jpg


                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                                Oi, us millennials might be lazy and self-entitled, but the eating Tide Pod idiocy is entirely on the Generation Z blockheads, not us.



                                I didn't make the meme, kiddo. You're excused from the broad brush.


                                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                                Comment

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