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Thread: Quran & islam's hate speech

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    I got the quranic ayats / verses mentioned in my originating post, siam. They are the words of Allah / God himself (allegedly claimed by muslims):-

    Sura 2/171 Yusuf Ali:-

    The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.


    Surah 7/176, 177:-

    If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is THAT OF A DOG: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he still lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude (or description) of those WHO REJECT Our signs; So relate the story; perhaps they may reflect.

    Evil as an example are PEOPLE who REJECT Our signs and wrong their own souls.

    Sura 62/5

    The likeness of those who are entrusted with the Law of Moses, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of THE ASS CARRYING BOOKS. WRETCHED is the likeness of folk who deny the revelations of Allah. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

    Sura 25/44:-

    Do you think that most of them hear or understand? They ARE ONLY LIKE CATTLE; nay, they are even farther astray from the Path. (i.e. they are even WORSE than cattle).

    Sura 8/55:-

    Lo! the WORST OF BEASTS in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will NOT BELIEVE.


    Sura 9/5:-

    Then, when the sacred months have passed, SLAY (KILL) the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Sura 9/29:-

    FIGHT THOSE who BELIEVE NOT in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, NOR ACKNOWLEDGE the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    All the above are presumably, ALLAH Speaking ie.all his words, in the belief of Muslims.

    The quran verses you gave (humans were created to 'know one another' etc) are instructions & commands for humans to relate to each other. But how on earth is that going to be possible, when Allah himself vilifies non-muslims with vileness, crass names, curses and all manner of foul abuse??

    The Koran is obviously & clearly contradicting itself here. How can muslims treat non muslims "nicely" as you claim in quoting sura 49, when Allah HIMSELF abuses, vilifies and curses them?

    God himself commands curses, abuses and vilification upon the unbelievers of islam. In conflict with what u r saying in sura 49. Who dares to go against the eternal & immutable words of God, up there? You r trying to contradict the commands of Allah.

    BTW, verse 49/2 does not prohibit muslims from talking loudly against & to each other! This ayat ONLY FORBIDS talking loudly & uncouthly against your precious & grandiose Muhd!

    " O those who believe, raise NOT YOUR VOICES ABOVE the voice of the Prophet, nor speak loudly to him - AS YOU MAY WITH ONE ANOTHER.."

    So this is just another example of the koran's - and its god, Allah's deference and preferential treatment to muhamed, founder of islam. All other humans may be treated carelessly, without a second thought.

    When Allah treats certain human groups with vile, crassness, & vilification, who are you to propose a divergent view?

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    The Bible is a very big book and comparatively, the Quran is a much thinner book. As a Muslim...I have read the Quran many times---so quoting Quranic verses out of context does not work with me. I have said so many times on this site that context is necessary and reading the verses previous to and after the quoted verse gives more context. As an example--lets look at Surah 2, verse 171 (Yusuf ali) ---in context by reading 170.

    170. When it is said to them: "follow what God has revealed" They say: "No we shall follow the ways of our fathers" What! even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?
    171. The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.

    Apparently the NT gives the same advice

    Matthew 7:6 is the sixth verse of the seventh chapter of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament and is part of the Sermon on the Mount.[1] This verse contains an ambiguous warning about placing "pearls before swine."

    The original Koine Greek, according to Westcott and Hort, reads:

    μὴ δῶτε τὸ ἅγιον τοῖς κυσὶν μηδὲ βάλητε τοὺς μαργαρίτας
    ὑμῶν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν χοίρων μήποτε καταπατήσουσιν αὐτοὺς
    ἐν τοῖς ποσὶν αὐτῶν καὶ στραφέντες ῥήξωσιν ὑμᾶς
    In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads:

    Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast
    ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them
    under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
    The World English Bible translates the passage as:

    Don’t give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw
    your pearls before the pigs, lest perhaps they trample
    them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

    So can YOU explain the Bible and Christian hate speech?

  3. #13
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    The Bible is a very big book and comparatively, the Quran is a much thinner book. As a Muslim...I have read the Quran many times---so quoting Quranic verses out of context does not work with me. I have said so many times on this site that context is necessary and reading the verses previous to and after the quoted verse gives more context. As an example--lets look at Surah 2, verse 171 (Yusuf ali) ---in context by reading 170.

    170. When it is said to them: "follow what God has revealed" They say: "No we shall follow the ways of our fathers" What! even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?
    171. The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.

    Apparently the NT gives the same advice

    Matthew 7:6 is the sixth verse of the seventh chapter of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament and is part of the Sermon on the Mount.[1] This verse contains an ambiguous warning about placing "pearls before swine."

    The original Koine Greek, according to Westcott and Hort, reads:

    μὴ δῶτε τὸ ἅγιον τοῖς κυσὶν μηδὲ βάλητε τοὺς μαργαρίτας
    ὑμῶν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν χοίρων μήποτε καταπατήσουσιν αὐτοὺς
    ἐν τοῖς ποσὶν αὐτῶν καὶ στραφέντες ῥήξωσιν ὑμᾶς
    In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads:

    Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast
    ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them
    under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
    The World English Bible translates the passage as:

    Don’t give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw
    your pearls before the pigs, lest perhaps they trample
    them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

    So can YOU explain the Bible and Christian hate speech?
    How is that hate speech? It says not to waste your time on people who will never change.

    Oh wait, let me guess, since dogs and pigs are evil and shunned under Islam, you think calling someone a dog or a pig is hate speech.

  4. #14
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    How is that hate speech? It says not to waste your time on people who will never change.

    Oh wait, let me guess, since dogs and pigs are evil and shunned under Islam, you think calling someone a dog or a pig is hate speech.
    I do not think it is hate speech---this was an assumption made by Dan when he quoted similar verses out of context.

  5. #15
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    ...

    BTW, verse 49/2 does not prohibit muslims from talking loudly against & to each other! This ayat ONLY FORBIDS talking loudly & uncouthly against Muhd!

    " O those who believe, raise NOT YOUR VOICES ABOVE the voice of the Prophet, nor speak loudly to him - AS YOU MAY WITH ONE ANOTHER.."
    Dan makes an interesting point here....

    1) The Islamic paradigm does not have a dichotomy of good/bad---rather morality/ethics is understood at 5 levels
    a) Permissible (Halal)
    b) permissible with conditions (Mustahab)
    c) Normative/duty (Wajib/Fard)
    d) Not permissible with exceptions (Makhruh)
    e) Not permissible (Haram)

    The Prophet was elected/chosen as leader by the community. As such, he has certain responsibilities---likewise the community also has reciprocal responsibility towards their chosen leader. Thus, the Quran asks for a higher level of civility and respect to the leader of the community than to "one another". This distinction preserves the right of the individuals to have vigorous discourse and debate with each other---the right to freedom of speech.

    2) The reason the Quran allows for freedom of speech is because religion is not meant to be a burden to people....
    Surah 2 verse 286.

    Yusuf Ali: On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

    Shakir: Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people.

  6. #16
    tWebber
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    Actually, no hate speech whatsoever, was uttered by Christ here. He was merely using a pre-existing rabbinic attribution so familiar among His Jewish audience for the gentiles who are considered "unclean" by the Jews, to convey His point across.

    The dog was already long regarded an unclean animal by the Jewish law. They probably represent snarling, scoffing opposers. The characteristic of dogs is brutality. To try to instill holy things among such minds is useless.

    Likewise, swine and pigs were also already long regarded unclean by Jewish laws and rabbinic customs. Just like the non-muslim are considered unclean or 'najasun' -filthy in the koran in sura 9/28 - "O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean (filthy, najasun); so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque."

    It was Christ after all, Who taught His disciples the distinct command to "love your enemies":-

    Matthew 5:43-45:

    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven."

    Its the exact opposite of the quran's hate speech.

    Nothing significantly comparable was ever uttered by Mohamed. Rather, the very opposite hate speeches were consistently spewed by him & on his lips on the "filthy infidels (mushrikun)" and those muslims who chose to dump islam and became apostates in his eyes..:-

    "Whoever leaves his islamic religion, KILL HIM." Bukhari Vol.9 #58.

    Now, THAT'S the REAL hate speech which, from day one, was propagated by the Quran & slavishly enforced by all sharia-compliant muslim societies to this very day.

  7. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  8. #17
    tWebber
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    No assumptions here siam, I did not quote those quran verses out of context. But you rather did, above, on "casting pearls before swine" verses. The Lord Jesus Christ was not making "hate speech" at all by just quoting the prevailing Jewish characterisation on the non-Jews (gentiles) ('dogs and pigs') to convey His counsel to not waste time on people who would not appreciate His glorious Gospel message, which included "the Son of Man did not come to be served, but TO serve and To GIVE HIS LIFE ie to sacrificially give up His life as A RANSOM FOR MANY" Matthew 20:28.

    This ransoming event is the decisive, redemptive act that takes the penalty and punishment for men's sin and restores mankind to a reconciled relationship with the Creator of all things.

    The following are hate speech and vilification against unbelievers, directly from the God of the quran -


    Surah 7/176, 177:-

    If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is THAT OF A DOG: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he still lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude (or description) of those WHO REJECT Our signs; So relate the story; perhaps they may reflect.

    Evil as an example are PEOPLE who REJECT Our signs and wrong their own souls.

    Sura 62/5

    The likeness of those who are entrusted with the Law of Moses, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of THE ASS CARRYING BOOKS. WRETCHED is the likeness of folk who deny the revelations of Allah. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

    Sura 25/44:-

    Do you think that most of them hear or understand? They ARE ONLY LIKE CATTLE; nay, they are even farther astray from the Path. (i.e. they are even WORSE than cattle).

    Sura 8/55:-

    Lo! the WORST OF BEASTS in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will NOT BELIEVE.

  9. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  10. #18
    tWebber
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    ...so...you are saying Jews/Christians call someone a dog and its wisdom but if Muslims do so its hate speech? why?

  11. #19
    tWebber
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    That's NOT what I said at all.

    Christ never used those derogatory terms of Himself but merely quoted what the Jews - and Muslims since their beginning, used. He was making a totally different point in the "pigs and dogs" citation. By ignoring my second part of the answer you conveniently label us as hate speech mongers.

    Christ never used hate speech in the same way that muhd & the quran does. His sermon on the mount and his commands to forgive and.love our enemies puts paid your claim that He used "hate speech'". When the very opposite was meant.

    On the other hand you conveniently gloss over the following quranic really hateful labels, made doubly and triply vicious and vilifying because the quran 8s considered Allah's divine and literal words:-

    Surah 7/176, 177:-

    If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is THAT OF A DOG: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he still lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude (or description) of those WHO REJECT Our signs; So relate the story; perhaps they may reflect.

    Evil as an example are PEOPLE who REJECT Our signs and wrong their own souls.

    Sura 62/5

    The likeness of those who are entrusted with the Law of Moses, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of THE ASS CARRYING BOOKS. WRETCHED is the likeness of folk who deny the revelations of Allah. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

    Sura 25/44:-

    Do you think that most of them hear or understand? They ARE ONLY LIKE CATTLE; nay, they are even farther astray from the Path. (i.e. they are even WORSE than cattle).

    Sura 8/55:-

    Lo! the WORST OF BEASTS in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will NOT BELIEVE

    ADDITIONALLY, the koran also mandates killing and fighting with the unbelievers of islam. Regardless of whether they were "waging war on the muslims"..:-

    Sura 9/5:-

    Then, when the sacred months have passed, SLAY (KILL) the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Sura 9/29:-

    FIGHT THOSE WHO BELIEVE NOT in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, NOR ACKNOWLEDGE the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    There's nothing in the context or background of sura 9/29 above to prove or show that these people of the Book were waging war on the muslims whatsoever. The only basis and reason for 'Allah' to command attacking them, was that these people did not want to believe in muhd, islam or the quran, and if they don't want to pay the protection money called 'jizya'.

    So much for freedom of religion in islam. There's really none, in facts.

  12. #20
    tWebber
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    None of the koranic verses I quoted are out of context, siam. U have not shown them to be, apart from making some bald claims.

    Indeed the Koran is practically full of ayats and passages that vilify Christians and Jews in particular as I have already shown specifically.

    How you can try to hoodwink naive and uninformed non-Muslims that islam and it's "holy book" teaches peace and tolerance, by just selectively citing verses, is nothing short of astounding, siam.

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