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Thread: Quran & islam's hate speech

  1. #21
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    None of the koranic verses I quoted are out of context, siam. U have not shown them to be, apart from making some bald claims.

    Indeed the Koran is practically full of ayats and passages that vilify Christians and Jews in particular as I have already shown specifically.

    How you can try to hoodwink naive and uninformed non-Muslims that islam and it's "holy book" teaches peace and tolerance, by just selectively citing verses, is nothing short of astounding, siam.

    None of the koranic verses U quoted are IN context, Dan. U have not shown them to be, apart from making some bald claims.

    Indeed the Koran is practically full of ayats and passages that call for tolerance as I show in the links.

    How you can try to hoodwink naive and uninformed non-Muslims that islam and it's "holy book" teaches hate and intolerance, by just selectively citing verses, is nothing short of astounding, Dan

    links
    https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/6-qu...edom-religion/

    https://www.islamicity.org/8667/tole...sion-in-islam/

  2. #22
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    Nice try, siam the dawagandist (islamic propogandist/missionary).

    Those links prove absolutely nothing. Except that the koran is full of meaningless contradictions, e.g.hate vs. "peaceful" ayats/verses, tolerant vs. Intolerant ones etc.

    Yes, there's plenty of vilification against Christians and Jews in your koran, one of which is the cursing ritual mohamed tried to get the Christian delegation from Najran to do with him, that was nothing more than hateful tyranny so typical of him, and the muslims who follow him blindly, today.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Nice try, siam the dawagandist (islamic propogandist/missionary).

    Those links prove absolutely nothing. Except that the koran is full of meaningless contradictions, e.g.hate vs. "peaceful" ayats/verses, tolerant vs. Intolerant ones etc.

    Yes, there's plenty of vilification against Christians and Jews in your koran, one of which is the cursing ritual mohamed tried to get the Christian delegation from Najran to do with him, that was nothing more than hateful tyranny so typical of him, and the muslims who follow him blindly, today.
    I disagree with both your points...I do not see contradictions in the Quran and I see long periods of religious/legal pluralism in Islamic history....but I can concede that human interpretation...or rather misinterpretations....have often led to contradictions, oppression, injustice also. Not all Muslims live upto the ethico-moral principles of the Quran..neither in the past nor in the present.

    In Islam, humanity is inherently good as we do not have a concept of original sin, depravity...etc....therefore, human society acts on evil (hate, dehumanization, genocide...etc) when power (state and/or legal) or a power-vacuum, enables or allows it. Hate (or evil) can be contained when power (state/legal) advocates for justice tempered with mercy. Such justice must be built on principles of the brotherhood of all humanity and that all humanity is of equivalent value (human dignity).

  4. #24
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    But of course u will disagree with me, siam. U are just trying to be a good muslim dawagandist (Muslim propagandist/missionary. People like you are here and are obliged to propogandize islam to the unbelieving kuffar, kafir non-muslim "infidels"! Like us...Christians! Such labels as found in surah 9/5, 9/27-29, 9/30 Are damning evidences of your Koran's vilifications, intolerance and hate - real and raw hate speech.

    About the koran's abundant attacks and vilification on Christianity & Judaism in general, those are amply & clearly found all over the Koran. For instance, Muhd's vicious & tyrannical attack on the visiting Christians from Najran by challenging them to a hateful mubahalah cursing ritual found in surah 3, which u never addressed or even noted.

    These Christians were discussing the identity and nature of Isa al-Masih i.e. Jesus Christ in a dialogue style and Muhd became unhappy with their their rejection of his (Muhd's) version of Christ. And his hate expressed itself in a mubahalah ritual towards the Christian delegation, which they obviously declined to participate in because of their loyalty to the true teachings and tenets of Jesus Christ their Saviour and Lord. This Christian delegation also cut short their visit and left earlier back to Najran.

    There are many more examples, also of contradictions - internal and external, in the Koran. Some are found here:-

    https://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

    https://carm.org/contradictions-quran


    https://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/index.html

    https://www.answering-islam.org/Why-not/index.html

    And also here.:-

    https://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/collect.html

    Try to answer all these points above before coming back here to preach & dawagandize & propogandize Islam to us, who all know better than to fall for your missionary targeting.


    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    I disagree with both your points...I do not see contradictions in the Quran and I see long periods of religious/legal pluralism in Islamic history....but I can concede that human interpretation...or rather misinterpretations....have often led to contradictions, oppression, injustice also. Not all Muslims live upto the ethico-moral principles of the Quran..neither in the past nor in the present.

    In Islam, humanity is inherently good as we do not have a concept of original sin, depravity...etc....therefore, human society acts on evil (hate, dehumanization, genocide...etc) when power (state and/or legal) or a power-vacuum, enables or allows it. Hate (or evil) can be contained when power (state/legal) advocates for justice tempered with mercy. Such justice must be built on principles of the brotherhood of all humanity and that all humanity is of equivalent value (human dignity).

  5. #25
    tWebber
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    To dawa (invite) is completely different from "missionary" in terms of activity as well as morality/ethics. The Quran makes it clear that it is not the responsibility/obligation of the Prophet to convert people---simply to spread knowledge so that humanity can make its own choice. In Islam...unlike Christianity..."sin"(errors) are not transferable, therefore each individual is responsible for their own choices (except in cases of oppression/force). That is why dawa means "to invite". The choice of accepting or declining is upto the individual.
    Christian history on the other hand has these examples of "missionary activity"...


    Persecution of heretics by the Church...
    After Constantine I stopped the persecution of Christians, it became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire. Already beginning under his reign, Christian heretics were persecuted; The most extreme case (as far as historians know) was the burning of Priscillian and six of his followers at the stake in 383.[2] In the view of many historians, the Constantinian shift turned Christianity from a persecuted into a persecuting religion.[3] Beginning in the late 4th century A.D. also the ancient pagan religions were actively suppressed.

    After the decline of the Roman Empire, the further Christianization of Europe was to a large extent peaceful,[4] although Jews and Muslims were harshly persecuted, to an extent of forced conversions in Byzantine empire. Encounters between Christians and Pagans were sometimes confrontational, and some Christian kings (Charlemagne, Olaf I of Norway) were known for their violence against pagans. The Northern Crusades, a series of campaigns against the pagan Balts and Slavs of northeastern Europe, faced fierce pagan resistance, requiring decades of violence by dedicated warrior-monks to force the submission, and compel the conversion, of the region's inhabitants, who were often left as serfs to an imported Christian German-speaking nobility.[5] There were often severe consequences for populations that chose to resist; for example, the Christian conquest and conversion of Old Prussia resulted in the death of much of the native population, whose language subsequently became extinct.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._and_tolerance

    Tainos massacre by Columbus

    "With 50 men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."---Columbus

    Columbus made La Taina, the land of the Tainos, into a living hell. It went way beyond simply killing those who fought Spanish rule. The Spanish had the Tainos:

    grilled,
    cut up into pieces like sheep,
    run down by hunting dogs and torn to pieces,
    strung up and burned alive 13 at a time – in memory of Jesus and his 12 Apostles.

    They killed even women and children. Even babies: the Spanish threw babies against rocks and into rivers – and laughed. They cut off pieces of Tainos for entertainment. They cut off their heads for practice. They raped women and girls – and brought back syphilis to Europe.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/0...aino-genocide/

    The Goa Inquisition
    The Goa Inquisition was a colonial-era Portuguese institution established by the Roman Catholic Holy Office between the 16th- and 19th-century to stop and punish heresy against Christianity in Asia.[1] The institution persecuted Hindus, Muslims, Bene Israels, New Christians and the Judaizing Nasranis by the colonial era Portuguese government and Jesuit clergy in Portuguese India.
    The setting up of the Goa Inquisition was requested by Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier from his headquarters Malacca in a letter dated 16 May 1546 to King John III of Portugal.[7][10][11] Between the Inquisition's beginning in 1561 and its temporary abolition in 1774, at least 16,202 persons were brought to trial by the Inquisition.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

    Stolen generation
    The Stolen Generations (also known as Stolen Children) were the children of Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander descent who were removed from their families by the Australian Federal and State government agencies and church missions, under acts of their respective parliaments.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

    These stories are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what Zealous "Christians" and their "missionaries" thought up and did in the name of Christianity.....

    As to the incident you refer to....here is a different pov....
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/plura...ians_b_9235554

    When the Christians of Najran arrived to Medina, Muhammad allowed them to pray in Nabawi mosque where the Muslims also prayed. This invitation was not only the first example of Christian-Muslim dialogue, but it was the first time that Christians prayed in a mosque. While Prophet Muhammad and the Najrans were not able to reach common ground on all theological issues, he nonetheless gave them a place to stay near his home, and even ordered Muslims to pitch their tent.

    Upon leaving Medina, the Najran Christian leaders told Muhammad: “O, Abu al-Qasim, we decided to leave you as you are and you leave us as we are. But send with us a man who can adjudicate things on our properties, because we accept you”. The Christians left Medina with a written guarantee that Prophet Muhammad would protect their lives, property, and freedom to practice Christianity.

    and....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_of_Mubahala

    In the ninth year of Hijra, Muhammad is reported to have sent a letter[f] to Abdul Haris Ibn Alqama, Grand Bishop of Najran, the official representative of the Roman Church in the Hijaz, inviting the people of that area to embrace Islam. In response to that letter a delegation was sent to Muhammad.[14]

    Between 21 and 25 of Dhu'l-Hijja 10 A.H. / 22 to 26 March 632 A.D. [specific dates contested],[15][16] the delegation arrived and discussions of religion and theology began, with the subject eventually turning to Jesus, the Messiah, and the question of defining what and who Jesus really is compared to what he is actually understood to be for each party. Muhammad preached to them that Jesus is a human being granted revelation by God and requested them to accept Islam. The Christians, however, were not convinced and responded with their explanations of Christ being divine.[4]

    Because of the Christians refusal to accept Muhammad's demand to acknowledge his message of Jesus, at odds with the Christians view of Jesus' divinity as the Son of God, the call to invoke a curse was initiated by Muhammad in order for God to disclose the truth in a practical manner.[12]

    The Quran says that in matters of theological dispute...God will decide.....and that is what this was about. Though the matter was left unresolved....the Christians (heretic) were left to practice their ways.
    These Christians would probably have been persecuted as heretics by "mainstream" Christianity because the Christians of Najran were non-Chalcedonian and/or Nestorian.....

    ....here is what the Church code says of heretics....
    With the adoption of Christianity by Constantine I (after Battle of Milvian Bridge, 312), heresy had become a political issue in the late Roman empire. Adherents of unconventional Christian beliefs not covered by the Nicene Creed like Novatianism and Gnosticism were banned from holding meetings,[18] but the Roman emperor intervened especially in the conflict between orthodox and Arian Christianity, which resulted in the burning of Arian books.[18]

    In contrast to the late antiquity, the execution of heretics was much more easily approved in the late Middle Ages, after the Christianization of Europe was largely completed. The first known case is the burning of fourteen people at Orléans in 1022.[24] In the following centuries groups like the Bogomils, Waldensians, Cathars and Lollards were persecuted throughout Europe. The Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) codified the theory and practise of persecution.[24] In its third canon, the council declared: "Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, .. to take an oath that they will strive .. to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church."[25]

    In the process of eliminating these heretical movements, Church officials, especially members of the Inquisition, made widespread use of torture to provoke confessions. Heretics who refused to recant their beliefs were hanged or burnt alive.[26] At the Siege of Béziers during the Albigensian Crusade (launched to eliminate the Cathars in Languedoc, crusaders under the direction of a papal legate, Arnaud Amalric killed an estimated 20,000 people, both Cathars and orthodox Catholics.[27]

    The Old Testament has been the main source for Christian theologians advocating religious persecution. An example of this would be John Jewel. In defending the demand for religious uniformity by Elizabeth I of England, he declared: "Queen Elizabeth doth as did Moses, Josua, David, Salomon, Josias, Jesophat, ..

    Can you explain or justify this aspect of Christianity for me?......
    Last edited by siam; 11-20-2019 at 12:27 AM.

  6. #26
    tWebber
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    Another desperate and pathetic attempt to paint the Najran Christians as heretics in the eyes of the Roman church, when they are only viewed as such by your guru and idol muhamed founder of islam, siam.

    These Najran Christians followed the orthodox and kerygmatic confession of the nature of Jesus Christ as the divine of God which was the earliest apostolic confession of Christ followers.

    Your self-appointed guru muhamed did not like that at all but failed to foist his own erroneous ideas upon the Najran Christians. So, he tried another tactic of mubahalah, or ritual invocations of curses & condemnations to get them to change their mind (sura 3/59-61)!

    Muhd's morbid intolerance at these Christians' orthodoxy made him force this bigoted action upon them revealing his true colors toward Christians. They politely declined his hateful challenge against them and left early from muhd's place, for home after seeing Muhd's true colors.

    Christ taught in Luke 6:27-28 (ESV):

    "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
    BLESS THOSE WHO CURSE YOU, pray for those who abuse you." - A much more beautiful teaching!

    The Christians know full well, from the teachings of the real, original Gospel of Yeshua (Jesus/Isa) that they were forbidden to invoke curses or condemnation on their rivals and detractors as instructed by the Lord Jesus Christ. Muhamad's preaching just could not factually cut it.

    They were heretics ONLY in your so-called "prophet's" eyes. Definitely NOT in the eyes of Christian orthodoxy, you are just peddling a red herring and flogging a dead horse by your suggestions.

    How could the Najran Christians ever begin to consider muhamed as any kind of "prophet" by any measure?

    Not when he received his so-called "revelations" (wahy) in dubious & questionable ways as even the hadith and sirah of sunni islam records & discussed here:-

    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...899#post673899

    Muhamed's hearing weird sounds of bells, epileptic foaming at the mouth, ringing, feverish hot and cold states, panic attacks, bees buzzing are all NOT the ways the OT prophets received the True Word of God.

    The orthodox Islamic descriptions and accounts of muhamad's reception of "God's word" are just typical of demonic possession and occultic satanic attacks. All of which Muhd manifested.

    And that's another reason why nobody of sound mind would ever acknowledge this false prophet - Muhamed, as any kind of a 'messenger of Allah/God'!

    You'd better wake up, missionary Siam, before its too late, stop peddling your dawa / dakwah wares here! They come from an intolerant, hateful man who reeks of sheer bigotry.






    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    To dawa (invite) is completely different from "missionary" in terms of activity as well as morality/ethics. The Quran makes it clear that it is not the responsibility/obligation of the Prophet to convert people---simply to spread knowledge so that humanity can make its own choice. In Islam...unlike Christianity..."sin"(errors) are not transferable, therefore each individual is responsible for their own choices (except in cases of oppression/force). That is why dawa means "to invite". The choice of accepting or declining is upto the individual.
    Christian history on the other hand has these examples of "missionary activity"...


    Persecution of heretics by the Church...
    After Constantine I stopped the persecution of Christians, it became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire. Already beginning under his reign, Christian heretics were persecuted; The most extreme case (as far as historians know) was the burning of Priscillian and six of his followers at the stake in 383.[2] In the view of many historians, the Constantinian shift turned Christianity from a persecuted into a persecuting religion.[3] Beginning in the late 4th century A.D. also the ancient pagan religions were actively suppressed.

    After the decline of the Roman Empire, the further Christianization of Europe was to a large extent peaceful,[4] although Jews and Muslims were harshly persecuted, to an extent of forced conversions in Byzantine empire. Encounters between Christians and Pagans were sometimes confrontational, and some Christian kings (Charlemagne, Olaf I of Norway) were known for their violence against pagans. The Northern Crusades, a series of campaigns against the pagan Balts and Slavs of northeastern Europe, faced fierce pagan resistance, requiring decades of violence by dedicated warrior-monks to force the submission, and compel the conversion, of the region's inhabitants, who were often left as serfs to an imported Christian German-speaking nobility.[5] There were often severe consequences for populations that chose to resist; for example, the Christian conquest and conversion of Old Prussia resulted in the death of much of the native population, whose language subsequently became extinct.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._and_tolerance

    Tainos massacre by Columbus

    "With 50 men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."---Columbus

    Columbus made La Taina, the land of the Tainos, into a living hell. It went way beyond simply killing those who fought Spanish rule. The Spanish had the Tainos:

    grilled,
    cut up into pieces like sheep,
    run down by hunting dogs and torn to pieces,
    strung up and burned alive 13 at a time – in memory of Jesus and his 12 Apostles.

    They killed even women and children. Even babies: the Spanish threw babies against rocks and into rivers – and laughed. They cut off pieces of Tainos for entertainment. They cut off their heads for practice. They raped women and girls – and brought back syphilis to Europe.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/0...aino-genocide/

    The Goa Inquisition
    The Goa Inquisition was a colonial-era Portuguese institution established by the Roman Catholic Holy Office between the 16th- and 19th-century to stop and punish heresy against Christianity in Asia.[1] The institution persecuted Hindus, Muslims, Bene Israels, New Christians and the Judaizing Nasranis by the colonial era Portuguese government and Jesuit clergy in Portuguese India.
    The setting up of the Goa Inquisition was requested by Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier from his headquarters Malacca in a letter dated 16 May 1546 to King John III of Portugal.[7][10][11] Between the Inquisition's beginning in 1561 and its temporary abolition in 1774, at least 16,202 persons were brought to trial by the Inquisition.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

    Stolen generation
    The Stolen Generations (also known as Stolen Children) were the children of Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander descent who were removed from their families by the Australian Federal and State government agencies and church missions, under acts of their respective parliaments.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

    These stories are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what Zealous "Christians" and their "missionaries" thought up and did in the name of Christianity.....

    As to the incident you refer to....here is a different pov....
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/plura...ians_b_9235554

    When the Christians of Najran arrived to Medina, Muhammad allowed them to pray in Nabawi mosque where the Muslims also prayed. This invitation was not only the first example of Christian-Muslim dialogue, but it was the first time that Christians prayed in a mosque. While Prophet Muhammad and the Najrans were not able to reach common ground on all theological issues, he nonetheless gave them a place to stay near his home, and even ordered Muslims to pitch their tent.

    Upon leaving Medina, the Najran Christian leaders told Muhammad: “O, Abu al-Qasim, we decided to leave you as you are and you leave us as we are. But send with us a man who can adjudicate things on our properties, because we accept you”. The Christians left Medina with a written guarantee that Prophet Muhammad would protect their lives, property, and freedom to practice Christianity.

    and....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_of_Mubahala

    In the ninth year of Hijra, Muhammad is reported to have sent a letter[f] to Abdul Haris Ibn Alqama, Grand Bishop of Najran, the official representative of the Roman Church in the Hijaz, inviting the people of that area to embrace Islam. In response to that letter a delegation was sent to Muhammad.[14]

    Between 21 and 25 of Dhu'l-Hijja 10 A.H. / 22 to 26 March 632 A.D. [specific dates contested],[15][16] the delegation arrived and discussions of religion and theology began, with the subject eventually turning to Jesus, the Messiah, and the question of defining what and who Jesus really is compared to what he is actually understood to be for each party. Muhammad preached to them that Jesus is a human being granted revelation by God and requested them to accept Islam. The Christians, however, were not convinced and responded with their explanations of Christ being divine.[4]

    Because of the Christians refusal to accept Muhammad's demand to acknowledge his message of Jesus, at odds with the Christians view of Jesus' divinity as the Son of God, the call to invoke a curse was initiated by Muhammad in order for God to disclose the truth in a practical manner.[12]

    The Quran says that in matters of theological dispute...God will decide.....and that is what this was about. Though the matter was left unresolved....the Christians (heretic) were left to practice their ways.
    These Christians would probably have been persecuted as heretics by "mainstream" Christianity because the Christians of Najran were non-Chalcedonian and/or Nestorian.....

    ....here is what the Church code says of heretics....
    With the adoption of Christianity by Constantine I (after Battle of Milvian Bridge, 312), heresy had become a political issue in the late Roman empire. Adherents of unconventional Christian beliefs not covered by the Nicene Creed like Novatianism and Gnosticism were banned from holding meetings,[18] but the Roman emperor intervened especially in the conflict between orthodox and Arian Christianity, which resulted in the burning of Arian books.[18]

    In contrast to the late antiquity, the execution of heretics was much more easily approved in the late Middle Ages, after the Christianization of Europe was largely completed. The first known case is the burning of fourteen people at Orléans in 1022.[24] In the following centuries groups like the Bogomils, Waldensians, Cathars and Lollards were persecuted throughout Europe. The Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) codified the theory and practise of persecution.[24] In its third canon, the council declared: "Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, .. to take an oath that they will strive .. to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church."[25]

    In the process of eliminating these heretical movements, Church officials, especially members of the Inquisition, made widespread use of torture to provoke confessions. Heretics who refused to recant their beliefs were hanged or burnt alive.[26] At the Siege of Béziers during the Albigensian Crusade (launched to eliminate the Cathars in Languedoc, crusaders under the direction of a papal legate, Arnaud Amalric killed an estimated 20,000 people, both Cathars and orthodox Catholics.[27]

    The Old Testament has been the main source for Christian theologians advocating religious persecution. An example of this would be John Jewel. In defending the demand for religious uniformity by Elizabeth I of England, he declared: "Queen Elizabeth doth as did Moses, Josua, David, Salomon, Josias, Jesophat, ..

    Can you explain or justify this aspect of Christianity for me?......

  7. #27
    tWebber
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    Najran Christians---There were a diversity of Christianities around the Arabian peninsula and the area around present day Yemen has a particularly complicated history...It was coveted by both the Byzantine and Persian Empires---both of them the superpowers of the time.

    according to wiki....
    Commercial reasons probably induced Christians to explore the possibilities in the area at an early period but the first attested Christian mission dates to that of Theophilos the Indian, a Christian of the Arian persuasion, who was active during the reign of Constantius II, and who was reported to have converted the Himyarites around 354/5.

    In the first quarter of the 6th century, a variety of records refer to a tragic episode in which a local king, Yusuf As'ar Dhu Nuwas, who had converted to Judaism and subjected the local Christian community to persecution, reportedly in retribution for the burning of a synagogue.[1] The events comprised episodes involving a massacre of Ethiopians in a Yemen garrison, the destruction of churches, punitive expeditions in a number of regions, and attempts to constrain communities to undergo conversion to Judaism.

    and....
    The Christians of Najran were divided into two sects. One drew on a variety of Nestorianism[citation needed], which a local merchant had acquired during a sojourn in al-Hira, and took back to Najran sometime during the reign of the Sassanid ruler Yazdegerd II. The other was a form of anti-Chalcedonianism

    and according to wiki.....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism

    Nestorius and his teachings were eventually condemned as heretical at the Council of Ephesus in 431, and again at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, which led to the Nestorian Schism; churches supporting Nestorian teachings broke with the rest of the Christian Church.

    According to history---the Christians of Najran were persecuted by the Jews---NOT by the Prophet (pbuh)...

    But later...the Christians retaliated...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraha
    Dhu Nuwas, the Jewish Himyarite ruler of Yemen, in the period c. 523–525[6] or c. 518–20[1] launched military operations against the Aksumite Christians and their local Arab Christian allies.[7] The Aksumites in Zafar were killed, their fortresses in the Yemeni highlands destroyed, and Najran sacked.

    Najran fell in 518 or 523 and many members of the Himyarite Christian community were put to death evoking great sympathy throughout the Christian regions of the Orient and prompting an intercontinental Aksumite military intervention using the massive Aksumite fleet aided by a small extra Byzantine fleet first made in 518/523.[7]

    Procopius identifies Abraha as the former slave of a Roman merchant who did business in Adulis.[8] Later, Abraha was either one of the commanders or a member of one of the armies led by King Kaleb of Axum against Dhu Nuwas.[9] In al-Tabari's history, 'Abraha is said to have been the commander of the second army sent by Kaléb after the first failed, led by 'Ariat.

    Abraha was reported to have led his army of 100,000 men with hundreds of elephants to successfully crush all resistance of the Yemeni army and then, following the suicide of Dhu Nuwas, seized power and established himself at Sana‘a. He aroused the wrath of Kaléb, however, by withholding tribute who then sent his general 'Ariat to take over the governorship of Yemen. 'Abraha rid himself of the latter by a subterfuge in a duel resulting in 'Ariat being killed and 'Abraha suffering the injury which earned him the sobriquet of al-Asräm, "scar-face."[6]

    According to Islamic tradition---This same Christian Abraha attacked Mecca in order to convert its inhabitants to Christianity.... The invasion was unsuccessful and eventually...Islam began...and spread in the area....

    History is complicated

  8. #28
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    History is complicated, I know. Thats why I argue instead from the source documents, ie surah 3 and also from the kerygma of the Injil / New Testament. The Najran Christians, from an examination of sura 3/59-61, clearly & unmistakably believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and this agrees fully with the earliest, first century apostoolic proclamation about Jesus Christ, and reaffirmed in the ecumenical creedal confessions. This stand itself has never been denied by any reputable historian or Biblical scholar to date.

    Islam also has many divergent creedal and theological histories that are as conflicting and contradictory as its multiple early movements and the incongruent, incoherent and conflicting verses of the Koran, actually resulting in multiple & diverging islams.

    The divergent theologies and hadiths of variant muslim groups like the Shias, Murjiites, literal kharijites, radical hashhashins, rationalist Mutazilites and mainline sunnites have all pulled early islam and "muslims" into diverging, fragmented and multiple opposing directions with no consensus keeping them together but mutual anathemas and mutual condemnations and violent persecutions against each other. Proving that there was no essential unity nor united theology, hadiths and Quranic and orthodox consistency among the early muslims!

    Arguing from the Scriptures of Christianity and islam is, for me STILL the safest way to get around all such "complications" of the divergent histories and different versions of islams that have existed from from the existential beginning of islam.

    The core point is, that the Najran Christians held on steadfastly to the divinity of Jesus Christ and this made muhamed very upset, and unreasonably so, because his preaching to the Christians failed miserably to change their conviction and minds about who Jesus Christ REALLY was!

    This got him to resort to "mutual" cursing rituals known to the koran and islam as _mubahalah_ . Cursing itself, is a hateful activity as it invokes the wrath, hatred and condemnation of God against a so-called "lying party" according to islam.

    This only shows the incoherence in understanding of Muhd towards what the earliest Christians actually believed and his intrepid intolerance toward them.

    This specific muhammadan example serves as the model for muslims to follow in their negative relations with Christians and it is enshrined in the koran for perpetuity. This illogical, suspicious antagonism against Christians is also based not on facts but on a gross misrepresention and misinterpretation of the term "Son of God" found in numerous verses of the koran like 6/101, 72/3-4 etc.

    That's because the hateful practices of mubahalah i.e. hateful cursing and condemnation, specifically directed against Christians, are embedded in the koran itself and perpetuates antagonism and the deepest antipathy against Christians since the start of muhammadan islam, 1400 years ago.


    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Najran Christians---There were a diversity of Christianities around the Arabian peninsula and the area around present day Yemen has a particularly complicated history...It was coveted by both the Byzantine and Persian Empires---both of them the superpowers of the time.

    according to wiki....
    Commercial reasons probably induced Christians to explore the possibilities in the area at an early period but the first attested Christian mission dates to that of Theophilos the Indian, a Christian of the Arian persuasion, who was active during the reign of Constantius II, and who was reported to have converted the Himyarites around 354/5.

    In the first quarter of the 6th century, a variety of records refer to a tragic episode in which a local king, Yusuf As'ar Dhu Nuwas, who had converted to Judaism and subjected the local Christian community to persecution, reportedly in retribution for the burning of a synagogue.[1] The events comprised episodes involving a massacre of Ethiopians in a Yemen garrison, the destruction of churches, punitive expeditions in a number of regions, and attempts to constrain communities to undergo conversion to Judaism.

    and....
    The Christians of Najran were divided into two sects. One drew on a variety of Nestorianism[citation needed], which a local merchant had acquired during a sojourn in al-Hira, and took back to Najran sometime during the reign of the Sassanid ruler Yazdegerd II. The other was a form of anti-Chalcedonianism

    and according to wiki.....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism

    Nestorius and his teachings were eventually condemned as heretical at the Council of Ephesus in 431, and again at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, which led to the Nestorian Schism; churches supporting Nestorian teachings broke with the rest of the Christian Church.

    According to history---the Christians of Najran were persecuted by the Jews---NOT by the Prophet (pbuh)...

    But later...the Christians retaliated...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraha
    Dhu Nuwas, the Jewish Himyarite ruler of Yemen, in the period c. 523–525[6] or c. 518–20[1] launched military operations against the Aksumite Christians and their local Arab Christian allies.[7] The Aksumites in Zafar were killed, their fortresses in the Yemeni highlands destroyed, and Najran sacked.

    Najran fell in 518 or 523 and many members of the Himyarite Christian community were put to death evoking great sympathy throughout the Christian regions of the Orient and prompting an intercontinental Aksumite military intervention using the massive Aksumite fleet aided by a small extra Byzantine fleet first made in 518/523.[7]

    Procopius identifies Abraha as the former slave of a Roman merchant who did business in Adulis.[8] Later, Abraha was either one of the commanders or a member of one of the armies led by King Kaleb of Axum against Dhu Nuwas.[9] In al-Tabari's history, 'Abraha is said to have been the commander of the second army sent by Kaléb after the first failed, led by 'Ariat.

    Abraha was reported to have led his army of 100,000 men with hundreds of elephants to successfully crush all resistance of the Yemeni army and then, following the suicide of Dhu Nuwas, seized power and established himself at Sana‘a. He aroused the wrath of Kaléb, however, by withholding tribute who then sent his general 'Ariat to take over the governorship of Yemen. 'Abraha rid himself of the latter by a subterfuge in a duel resulting in 'Ariat being killed and 'Abraha suffering the injury which earned him the sobriquet of al-Asräm, "scar-face."[6]

    According to Islamic tradition---This same Christian Abraha attacked Mecca in order to convert its inhabitants to Christianity.... The invasion was unsuccessful and eventually...Islam began...and spread in the area....

    History is complicated

  9. #29
    tWebber
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    Another terrorist attack in London by a known Muslim violent extremist fanatic. This time, a REPEAT offender who had to be tagged to track this religious, islamist crazy activities..

    One wonders if giving such fundamentalist Muslims the freedoms of 2nd, 3rd etc chances will really help to reform them to better & so-called "peaceful" behaviour - as is claimed by islam (the so-called religion of "peace"), but, NO, it obviously is not going to happen. These Islamic fanatics just continue to function as islam commands them - to radical violence as per normal!

    This is undeniable proof positive, that the koran instils fear, hatred and violence to all fundamental Muslims. Who have but to obey these commands in order to please Allah, their God.

    https://news.sky.com/story/london-br...shots-11873515

  10. #30
    tWebber
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    An update by the Assistant Commissioner of Police on the terrorist attack in London:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...erything-know/

    One wonders if such religiously inspired violence will stop under a secular state regime.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Another terrorist attack in London by a known Muslim violent extremist fanatic. This time, a REPEAT offender who had to be tagged to track this religious, islamist crazy activities..

    One wonders if giving such fundamentalist Muslims the freedoms of 2nd, 3rd etc chances will really help to reform them to better & so-called "peaceful" behaviour - as is claimed by islam (the so-called religion of "peace"), but, NO, it obviously is not going to happen. These Islamic fanatics just continue to function as islam commands them - to radical violence as per normal!

    This is undeniable proof positive, that the koran instils fear, hatred and violence to all fundamental Muslims. Who have but to obey these commands in order to please Allah, their God.

    https://news.sky.com/story/london-br...shots-11873515

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