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Quran & islam's hate speech

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  • #16
    Actually, no hate speech whatsoever, was uttered by Christ here. He was merely using a pre-existing rabbinic attribution so familiar among His Jewish audience for the gentiles who are considered "unclean" by the Jews, to convey His point across.

    The dog was already long regarded an unclean animal by the Jewish law. They probably represent snarling, scoffing opposers. The characteristic of dogs is brutality. To try to instill holy things among such minds is useless.

    Likewise, swine and pigs were also already long regarded unclean by Jewish laws and rabbinic customs. Just like the non-muslim are considered unclean or 'najasun' -filthy in the koran in sura 9/28 - "O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean (filthy, najasun); so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque."

    It was Christ after all, Who taught His disciples the distinct command to "love your enemies":-

    Matthew 5:43-45:

    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven."

    Its the exact opposite of the quran's hate speech.

    Nothing significantly comparable was ever uttered by Mohamed. Rather, the very opposite hate speeches were consistently spewed by him & on his lips on the "filthy infidels (mushrikun)" and those muslims who chose to dump islam and became apostates in his eyes..:-

    "Whoever leaves his islamic religion, KILL HIM." Bukhari Vol.9 #58.

    Now, THAT'S the REAL hate speech which, from day one, was propagated by the Quran & slavishly enforced by all sharia-compliant muslim societies to this very day.

    Comment


    • #17
      No assumptions here siam, I did not quote those quran verses out of context. But you rather did, above, on "casting pearls before swine" verses. The Lord Jesus Christ was not making "hate speech" at all by just quoting the prevailing Jewish characterisation on the non-Jews (gentiles) ('dogs and pigs') to convey His counsel to not waste time on people who would not appreciate His glorious Gospel message, which included "the Son of Man did not come to be served, but TO serve and To GIVE HIS LIFE ie to sacrificially give up His life as A RANSOM FOR MANY" Matthew 20:28.

      This ransoming event is the decisive, redemptive act that takes the penalty and punishment for men's sin and restores mankind to a reconciled relationship with the Creator of all things.

      The following are hate speech and vilification against unbelievers, directly from the God of the quran -


      Surah 7/176, 177:-

      If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is THAT OF A DOG: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he still lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude (or description) of those WHO REJECT Our signs; So relate the story; perhaps they may reflect.

      Evil as an example are PEOPLE who REJECT Our signs and wrong their own souls.

      Sura 62/5

      The likeness of those who are entrusted with the Law of Moses, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of THE ASS CARRYING BOOKS. WRETCHED is the likeness of folk who deny the revelations of Allah. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

      Sura 25/44:-

      Do you think that most of them hear or understand? They ARE ONLY LIKE CATTLE; nay, they are even farther astray from the Path. (i.e. they are even WORSE than cattle).

      Sura 8/55:-

      Lo! the WORST OF BEASTS in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will NOT BELIEVE.

      Comment


      • #18
        ...so...you are saying Jews/Christians call someone a dog and its wisdom but if Muslims do so its hate speech? why?

        Comment


        • #19
          That's NOT what I said at all.

          Christ never used those derogatory terms of Himself but merely quoted what the Jews - and Muslims since their beginning, used. He was making a totally different point in the "pigs and dogs" citation. By ignoring my second part of the answer you conveniently label us as hate speech mongers.

          Christ never used hate speech in the same way that muhd & the quran does. His sermon on the mount and his commands to forgive and.love our enemies puts paid your claim that He used "hate speech'". When the very opposite was meant.

          On the other hand you conveniently gloss over the following quranic really hateful labels, made doubly and triply vicious and vilifying because the quran 8s considered Allah's divine and literal words:-

          Surah 7/176, 177:-

          If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is THAT OF A DOG: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he still lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude (or description) of those WHO REJECT Our signs; So relate the story; perhaps they may reflect.

          Evil as an example are PEOPLE who REJECT Our signs and wrong their own souls.

          Sura 62/5

          The likeness of those who are entrusted with the Law of Moses, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of THE ASS CARRYING BOOKS. WRETCHED is the likeness of folk who deny the revelations of Allah. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

          Sura 25/44:-

          Do you think that most of them hear or understand? They ARE ONLY LIKE CATTLE; nay, they are even farther astray from the Path. (i.e. they are even WORSE than cattle).

          Sura 8/55:-

          Lo! the WORST OF BEASTS in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will NOT BELIEVE

          ADDITIONALLY, the koran also mandates killing and fighting with the unbelievers of islam. Regardless of whether they were "waging war on the muslims"..:-

          Sura 9/5:-

          Then, when the sacred months have passed, SLAY (KILL) the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

          Sura 9/29:-

          FIGHT THOSE WHO BELIEVE NOT in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, NOR ACKNOWLEDGE the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

          There's nothing in the context or background of sura 9/29 above to prove or show that these people of the Book were waging war on the muslims whatsoever. The only basis and reason for 'Allah' to command attacking them, was that these people did not want to believe in muhd, islam or the quran, and if they don't want to pay the protection money called 'jizya'.

          So much for freedom of religion in islam. There's really none, in facts.

          Comment


          • #20
            None of the koranic verses I quoted are out of context, siam. U have not shown them to be, apart from making some bald claims.

            Indeed the Koran is practically full of ayats and passages that vilify Christians and Jews in particular as I have already shown specifically.

            How you can try to hoodwink naive and uninformed non-Muslims that islam and it's "holy book" teaches peace and tolerance, by just selectively citing verses, is nothing short of astounding, siam.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
              None of the koranic verses I quoted are out of context, siam. U have not shown them to be, apart from making some bald claims.

              Indeed the Koran is practically full of ayats and passages that vilify Christians and Jews in particular as I have already shown specifically.

              How you can try to hoodwink naive and uninformed non-Muslims that islam and it's "holy book" teaches peace and tolerance, by just selectively citing verses, is nothing short of astounding, siam.

              None of the koranic verses U quoted are IN context, Dan. U have not shown them to be, apart from making some bald claims.

              Indeed the Koran is practically full of ayats and passages that call for tolerance as I show in the links.

              How you can try to hoodwink naive and uninformed non-Muslims that islam and it's "holy book" teaches hate and intolerance, by just selectively citing verses, is nothing short of astounding, Dan

              links
              https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/6-qu...edom-religion/

              https://www.islamicity.org/8667/tole...sion-in-islam/

              Comment


              • #22
                Nice try, siam the dawagandist (islamic propogandist/missionary).

                Those links prove absolutely nothing. Except that the koran is full of meaningless contradictions, e.g.hate vs. "peaceful" ayats/verses, tolerant vs. Intolerant ones etc.

                Yes, there's plenty of vilification against Christians and Jews in your koran, one of which is the cursing ritual mohamed tried to get the Christian delegation from Najran to do with him, that was nothing more than hateful tyranny so typical of him, and the muslims who follow him blindly, today.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                  Nice try, siam the dawagandist (islamic propogandist/missionary).

                  Those links prove absolutely nothing. Except that the koran is full of meaningless contradictions, e.g.hate vs. "peaceful" ayats/verses, tolerant vs. Intolerant ones etc.

                  Yes, there's plenty of vilification against Christians and Jews in your koran, one of which is the cursing ritual mohamed tried to get the Christian delegation from Najran to do with him, that was nothing more than hateful tyranny so typical of him, and the muslims who follow him blindly, today.
                  I disagree with both your points...I do not see contradictions in the Quran and I see long periods of religious/legal pluralism in Islamic history....but I can concede that human interpretation...or rather misinterpretations....have often led to contradictions, oppression, injustice also. Not all Muslims live upto the ethico-moral principles of the Quran..neither in the past nor in the present.

                  In Islam, humanity is inherently good as we do not have a concept of original sin, depravity...etc....therefore, human society acts on evil (hate, dehumanization, genocide...etc) when power (state and/or legal) or a power-vacuum, enables or allows it. Hate (or evil) can be contained when power (state/legal) advocates for justice tempered with mercy. Such justice must be built on principles of the brotherhood of all humanity and that all humanity is of equivalent value (human dignity).

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    But of course u will disagree with me, siam. U are just trying to be a good muslim dawagandist (Muslim propagandist/missionary. People like you are here and are obliged to propogandize islam to the unbelieving kuffar, kafir non-muslim "infidels"! Like us...Christians! Such labels as found in surah 9/5, 9/27-29, 9/30 Are damning evidences of your Koran's vilifications, intolerance and hate - real and raw hate speech.

                    About the koran's abundant attacks and vilification on Christianity & Judaism in general, those are amply & clearly found all over the Koran. For instance, Muhd's vicious & tyrannical attack on the visiting Christians from Najran by challenging them to a hateful mubahalah cursing ritual found in surah 3, which u never addressed or even noted.

                    These Christians were discussing the identity and nature of Isa al-Masih i.e. Jesus Christ in a dialogue style and Muhd became unhappy with their their rejection of his (Muhd's) version of Christ. And his hate expressed itself in a mubahalah ritual towards the Christian delegation, which they obviously declined to participate in because of their loyalty to the true teachings and tenets of Jesus Christ their Saviour and Lord. This Christian delegation also cut short their visit and left earlier back to Najran.

                    There are many more examples, also of contradictions - internal and external, in the Koran. Some are found here:-

                    https://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

                    https://carm.org/contradictions-quran


                    https://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/index.html

                    https://www.answering-islam.org/Why-not/index.html

                    And also here.:-

                    https://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/collect.html

                    Try to answer all these points above before coming back here to preach & dawagandize & propogandize Islam to us, who all know better than to fall for your missionary targeting.


                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    I disagree with both your points...I do not see contradictions in the Quran and I see long periods of religious/legal pluralism in Islamic history....but I can concede that human interpretation...or rather misinterpretations....have often led to contradictions, oppression, injustice also. Not all Muslims live upto the ethico-moral principles of the Quran..neither in the past nor in the present.

                    In Islam, humanity is inherently good as we do not have a concept of original sin, depravity...etc....therefore, human society acts on evil (hate, dehumanization, genocide...etc) when power (state and/or legal) or a power-vacuum, enables or allows it. Hate (or evil) can be contained when power (state/legal) advocates for justice tempered with mercy. Such justice must be built on principles of the brotherhood of all humanity and that all humanity is of equivalent value (human dignity).

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      To dawa (invite) is completely different from "missionary" in terms of activity as well as morality/ethics. The Quran makes it clear that it is not the responsibility/obligation of the Prophet to convert people---simply to spread knowledge so that humanity can make its own choice. In Islam...unlike Christianity..."sin"(errors) are not transferable, therefore each individual is responsible for their own choices (except in cases of oppression/force). That is why dawa means "to invite". The choice of accepting or declining is upto the individual.
                      Christian history on the other hand has these examples of "missionary activity"...


                      Persecution of heretics by the Church...
                      After Constantine I stopped the persecution of Christians, it became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire. Already beginning under his reign, Christian heretics were persecuted; The most extreme case (as far as historians know) was the burning of Priscillian and six of his followers at the stake in 383.[2] In the view of many historians, the Constantinian shift turned Christianity from a persecuted into a persecuting religion.[3] Beginning in the late 4th century A.D. also the ancient pagan religions were actively suppressed.

                      After the decline of the Roman Empire, the further Christianization of Europe was to a large extent peaceful,[4] although Jews and Muslims were harshly persecuted, to an extent of forced conversions in Byzantine empire. Encounters between Christians and Pagans were sometimes confrontational, and some Christian kings (Charlemagne, Olaf I of Norway) were known for their violence against pagans. The Northern Crusades, a series of campaigns against the pagan Balts and Slavs of northeastern Europe, faced fierce pagan resistance, requiring decades of violence by dedicated warrior-monks to force the submission, and compel the conversion, of the region's inhabitants, who were often left as serfs to an imported Christian German-speaking nobility.[5] There were often severe consequences for populations that chose to resist; for example, the Christian conquest and conversion of Old Prussia resulted in the death of much of the native population, whose language subsequently became extinct.
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._and_tolerance

                      Tainos massacre by Columbus

                      "With 50 men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."---Columbus

                      Columbus made La Taina, the land of the Tainos, into a living hell. It went way beyond simply killing those who fought Spanish rule. The Spanish had the Tainos:

                      grilled,
                      cut up into pieces like sheep,
                      run down by hunting dogs and torn to pieces,
                      strung up and burned alive 13 at a time – in memory of Jesus and his 12 Apostles.

                      They killed even women and children. Even babies: the Spanish threw babies against rocks and into rivers – and laughed. They cut off pieces of Tainos for entertainment. They cut off their heads for practice. They raped women and girls – and brought back syphilis to Europe.

                      https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/0...aino-genocide/

                      The Goa Inquisition
                      The Goa Inquisition was a colonial-era Portuguese institution established by the Roman Catholic Holy Office between the 16th- and 19th-century to stop and punish heresy against Christianity in Asia.[1] The institution persecuted Hindus, Muslims, Bene Israels, New Christians and the Judaizing Nasranis by the colonial era Portuguese government and Jesuit clergy in Portuguese India.
                      The setting up of the Goa Inquisition was requested by Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier from his headquarters Malacca in a letter dated 16 May 1546 to King John III of Portugal.[7][10][11] Between the Inquisition's beginning in 1561 and its temporary abolition in 1774, at least 16,202 persons were brought to trial by the Inquisition.
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

                      Stolen generation
                      The Stolen Generations (also known as Stolen Children) were the children of Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander descent who were removed from their families by the Australian Federal and State government agencies and church missions, under acts of their respective parliaments.
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

                      These stories are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what Zealous "Christians" and their "missionaries" thought up and did in the name of Christianity.....

                      As to the incident you refer to....here is a different pov....
                      https://www.huffpost.com/entry/plura...ians_b_9235554

                      When the Christians of Najran arrived to Medina, Muhammad allowed them to pray in Nabawi mosque where the Muslims also prayed. This invitation was not only the first example of Christian-Muslim dialogue, but it was the first time that Christians prayed in a mosque. While Prophet Muhammad and the Najrans were not able to reach common ground on all theological issues, he nonetheless gave them a place to stay near his home, and even ordered Muslims to pitch their tent.

                      Upon leaving Medina, the Najran Christian leaders told Muhammad: “O, Abu al-Qasim, we decided to leave you as you are and you leave us as we are. But send with us a man who can adjudicate things on our properties, because we accept you”. The Christians left Medina with a written guarantee that Prophet Muhammad would protect their lives, property, and freedom to practice Christianity.

                      and....
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_of_Mubahala

                      In the ninth year of Hijra, Muhammad is reported to have sent a letter[f] to Abdul Haris Ibn Alqama, Grand Bishop of Najran, the official representative of the Roman Church in the Hijaz, inviting the people of that area to embrace Islam. In response to that letter a delegation was sent to Muhammad.[14]

                      Between 21 and 25 of Dhu'l-Hijja 10 A.H. / 22 to 26 March 632 A.D. [specific dates contested],[15][16] the delegation arrived and discussions of religion and theology began, with the subject eventually turning to Jesus, the Messiah, and the question of defining what and who Jesus really is compared to what he is actually understood to be for each party. Muhammad preached to them that Jesus is a human being granted revelation by God and requested them to accept Islam. The Christians, however, were not convinced and responded with their explanations of Christ being divine.[4]

                      Because of the Christians refusal to accept Muhammad's demand to acknowledge his message of Jesus, at odds with the Christians view of Jesus' divinity as the Son of God, the call to invoke a curse was initiated by Muhammad in order for God to disclose the truth in a practical manner.[12]

                      The Quran says that in matters of theological dispute...God will decide.....and that is what this was about. Though the matter was left unresolved....the Christians (heretic) were left to practice their ways.
                      These Christians would probably have been persecuted as heretics by "mainstream" Christianity because the Christians of Najran were non-Chalcedonian and/or Nestorian.....

                      ....here is what the Church code says of heretics....
                      With the adoption of Christianity by Constantine I (after Battle of Milvian Bridge, 312), heresy had become a political issue in the late Roman empire. Adherents of unconventional Christian beliefs not covered by the Nicene Creed like Novatianism and Gnosticism were banned from holding meetings,[18] but the Roman emperor intervened especially in the conflict between orthodox and Arian Christianity, which resulted in the burning of Arian books.[18]

                      In contrast to the late antiquity, the execution of heretics was much more easily approved in the late Middle Ages, after the Christianization of Europe was largely completed. The first known case is the burning of fourteen people at Orléans in 1022.[24] In the following centuries groups like the Bogomils, Waldensians, Cathars and Lollards were persecuted throughout Europe. The Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) codified the theory and practise of persecution.[24] In its third canon, the council declared: "Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, .. to take an oath that they will strive .. to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church."[25]

                      In the process of eliminating these heretical movements, Church officials, especially members of the Inquisition, made widespread use of torture to provoke confessions. Heretics who refused to recant their beliefs were hanged or burnt alive.[26] At the Siege of BĂ©ziers during the Albigensian Crusade (launched to eliminate the Cathars in Languedoc, crusaders under the direction of a papal legate, Arnaud Amalric killed an estimated 20,000 people, both Cathars and orthodox Catholics.[27]

                      The Old Testament has been the main source for Christian theologians advocating religious persecution. An example of this would be John Jewel. In defending the demand for religious uniformity by Elizabeth I of England, he declared: "Queen Elizabeth doth as did Moses, Josua, David, Salomon, Josias, Jesophat, ..

                      Can you explain or justify this aspect of Christianity for me?......
                      Last edited by siam; 11-20-2019, 01:27 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Another desperate and pathetic attempt to paint the Najran Christians as heretics in the eyes of the Roman church, when they are only viewed as such by your guru and idol muhamed founder of islam, siam.

                        These Najran Christians followed the orthodox and kerygmatic confession of the nature of Jesus Christ as the divine of God which was the earliest apostolic confession of Christ followers.

                        Your self-appointed guru muhamed did not like that at all but failed to foist his own erroneous ideas upon the Najran Christians. So, he tried another tactic of mubahalah, or ritual invocations of curses & condemnations to get them to change their mind (sura 3/59-61)!

                        Muhd's morbid intolerance at these Christians' orthodoxy made him force this bigoted action upon them revealing his true colors toward Christians. They politely declined his hateful challenge against them and left early from muhd's place, for home after seeing Muhd's true colors.

                        Christ taught in Luke 6:27-28 (ESV):

                        "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
                        BLESS THOSE WHO CURSE YOU, pray for those who abuse you." - A much more beautiful teaching!

                        The Christians know full well, from the teachings of the real, original Gospel of Yeshua (Jesus/Isa) that they were forbidden to invoke curses or condemnation on their rivals and detractors as instructed by the Lord Jesus Christ. Muhamad's preaching just could not factually cut it.

                        They were heretics ONLY in your so-called "prophet's" eyes. Definitely NOT in the eyes of Christian orthodoxy, you are just peddling a red herring and flogging a dead horse by your suggestions.

                        How could the Najran Christians ever begin to consider muhamed as any kind of "prophet" by any measure?

                        Not when he received his so-called "revelations" (wahy) in dubious & questionable ways as even the hadith and sirah of sunni islam records & discussed here:-

                        http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...899#post673899

                        Muhamed's hearing weird sounds of bells, epileptic foaming at the mouth, ringing, feverish hot and cold states, panic attacks, bees buzzing are all NOT the ways the OT prophets received the True Word of God.

                        The orthodox Islamic descriptions and accounts of muhamad's reception of "God's word" are just typical of demonic possession and occultic satanic attacks. All of which Muhd manifested.

                        And that's another reason why nobody of sound mind would ever acknowledge this false prophet - Muhamed, as any kind of a 'messenger of Allah/God'!

                        You'd better wake up, missionary Siam, before its too late, stop peddling your dawa / dakwah wares here! They come from an intolerant, hateful man who reeks of sheer bigotry.






                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        To dawa (invite) is completely different from "missionary" in terms of activity as well as morality/ethics. The Quran makes it clear that it is not the responsibility/obligation of the Prophet to convert people---simply to spread knowledge so that humanity can make its own choice. In Islam...unlike Christianity..."sin"(errors) are not transferable, therefore each individual is responsible for their own choices (except in cases of oppression/force). That is why dawa means "to invite". The choice of accepting or declining is upto the individual.
                        Christian history on the other hand has these examples of "missionary activity"...


                        Persecution of heretics by the Church...
                        After Constantine I stopped the persecution of Christians, it became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire. Already beginning under his reign, Christian heretics were persecuted; The most extreme case (as far as historians know) was the burning of Priscillian and six of his followers at the stake in 383.[2] In the view of many historians, the Constantinian shift turned Christianity from a persecuted into a persecuting religion.[3] Beginning in the late 4th century A.D. also the ancient pagan religions were actively suppressed.

                        After the decline of the Roman Empire, the further Christianization of Europe was to a large extent peaceful,[4] although Jews and Muslims were harshly persecuted, to an extent of forced conversions in Byzantine empire. Encounters between Christians and Pagans were sometimes confrontational, and some Christian kings (Charlemagne, Olaf I of Norway) were known for their violence against pagans. The Northern Crusades, a series of campaigns against the pagan Balts and Slavs of northeastern Europe, faced fierce pagan resistance, requiring decades of violence by dedicated warrior-monks to force the submission, and compel the conversion, of the region's inhabitants, who were often left as serfs to an imported Christian German-speaking nobility.[5] There were often severe consequences for populations that chose to resist; for example, the Christian conquest and conversion of Old Prussia resulted in the death of much of the native population, whose language subsequently became extinct.
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._and_tolerance

                        Tainos massacre by Columbus

                        "With 50 men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."---Columbus

                        Columbus made La Taina, the land of the Tainos, into a living hell. It went way beyond simply killing those who fought Spanish rule. The Spanish had the Tainos:

                        grilled,
                        cut up into pieces like sheep,
                        run down by hunting dogs and torn to pieces,
                        strung up and burned alive 13 at a time – in memory of Jesus and his 12 Apostles.

                        They killed even women and children. Even babies: the Spanish threw babies against rocks and into rivers – and laughed. They cut off pieces of Tainos for entertainment. They cut off their heads for practice. They raped women and girls – and brought back syphilis to Europe.

                        https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/0...aino-genocide/

                        The Goa Inquisition
                        The Goa Inquisition was a colonial-era Portuguese institution established by the Roman Catholic Holy Office between the 16th- and 19th-century to stop and punish heresy against Christianity in Asia.[1] The institution persecuted Hindus, Muslims, Bene Israels, New Christians and the Judaizing Nasranis by the colonial era Portuguese government and Jesuit clergy in Portuguese India.
                        The setting up of the Goa Inquisition was requested by Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier from his headquarters Malacca in a letter dated 16 May 1546 to King John III of Portugal.[7][10][11] Between the Inquisition's beginning in 1561 and its temporary abolition in 1774, at least 16,202 persons were brought to trial by the Inquisition.
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

                        Stolen generation
                        The Stolen Generations (also known as Stolen Children) were the children of Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander descent who were removed from their families by the Australian Federal and State government agencies and church missions, under acts of their respective parliaments.
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

                        These stories are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what Zealous "Christians" and their "missionaries" thought up and did in the name of Christianity.....

                        As to the incident you refer to....here is a different pov....
                        https://www.huffpost.com/entry/plura...ians_b_9235554

                        When the Christians of Najran arrived to Medina, Muhammad allowed them to pray in Nabawi mosque where the Muslims also prayed. This invitation was not only the first example of Christian-Muslim dialogue, but it was the first time that Christians prayed in a mosque. While Prophet Muhammad and the Najrans were not able to reach common ground on all theological issues, he nonetheless gave them a place to stay near his home, and even ordered Muslims to pitch their tent.

                        Upon leaving Medina, the Najran Christian leaders told Muhammad: “O, Abu al-Qasim, we decided to leave you as you are and you leave us as we are. But send with us a man who can adjudicate things on our properties, because we accept you”. The Christians left Medina with a written guarantee that Prophet Muhammad would protect their lives, property, and freedom to practice Christianity.

                        and....
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_of_Mubahala

                        In the ninth year of Hijra, Muhammad is reported to have sent a letter[f] to Abdul Haris Ibn Alqama, Grand Bishop of Najran, the official representative of the Roman Church in the Hijaz, inviting the people of that area to embrace Islam. In response to that letter a delegation was sent to Muhammad.[14]

                        Between 21 and 25 of Dhu'l-Hijja 10 A.H. / 22 to 26 March 632 A.D. [specific dates contested],[15][16] the delegation arrived and discussions of religion and theology began, with the subject eventually turning to Jesus, the Messiah, and the question of defining what and who Jesus really is compared to what he is actually understood to be for each party. Muhammad preached to them that Jesus is a human being granted revelation by God and requested them to accept Islam. The Christians, however, were not convinced and responded with their explanations of Christ being divine.[4]

                        Because of the Christians refusal to accept Muhammad's demand to acknowledge his message of Jesus, at odds with the Christians view of Jesus' divinity as the Son of God, the call to invoke a curse was initiated by Muhammad in order for God to disclose the truth in a practical manner.[12]

                        The Quran says that in matters of theological dispute...God will decide.....and that is what this was about. Though the matter was left unresolved....the Christians (heretic) were left to practice their ways.
                        These Christians would probably have been persecuted as heretics by "mainstream" Christianity because the Christians of Najran were non-Chalcedonian and/or Nestorian.....

                        ....here is what the Church code says of heretics....
                        With the adoption of Christianity by Constantine I (after Battle of Milvian Bridge, 312), heresy had become a political issue in the late Roman empire. Adherents of unconventional Christian beliefs not covered by the Nicene Creed like Novatianism and Gnosticism were banned from holding meetings,[18] but the Roman emperor intervened especially in the conflict between orthodox and Arian Christianity, which resulted in the burning of Arian books.[18]

                        In contrast to the late antiquity, the execution of heretics was much more easily approved in the late Middle Ages, after the Christianization of Europe was largely completed. The first known case is the burning of fourteen people at Orléans in 1022.[24] In the following centuries groups like the Bogomils, Waldensians, Cathars and Lollards were persecuted throughout Europe. The Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) codified the theory and practise of persecution.[24] In its third canon, the council declared: "Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, .. to take an oath that they will strive .. to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church."[25]

                        In the process of eliminating these heretical movements, Church officials, especially members of the Inquisition, made widespread use of torture to provoke confessions. Heretics who refused to recant their beliefs were hanged or burnt alive.[26] At the Siege of BĂ©ziers during the Albigensian Crusade (launched to eliminate the Cathars in Languedoc, crusaders under the direction of a papal legate, Arnaud Amalric killed an estimated 20,000 people, both Cathars and orthodox Catholics.[27]

                        The Old Testament has been the main source for Christian theologians advocating religious persecution. An example of this would be John Jewel. In defending the demand for religious uniformity by Elizabeth I of England, he declared: "Queen Elizabeth doth as did Moses, Josua, David, Salomon, Josias, Jesophat, ..

                        Can you explain or justify this aspect of Christianity for me?......

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Najran Christians---There were a diversity of Christianities around the Arabian peninsula and the area around present day Yemen has a particularly complicated history...It was coveted by both the Byzantine and Persian Empires---both of them the superpowers of the time.

                          according to wiki....
                          Commercial reasons probably induced Christians to explore the possibilities in the area at an early period but the first attested Christian mission dates to that of Theophilos the Indian, a Christian of the Arian persuasion, who was active during the reign of Constantius II, and who was reported to have converted the Himyarites around 354/5.

                          In the first quarter of the 6th century, a variety of records refer to a tragic episode in which a local king, Yusuf As'ar Dhu Nuwas, who had converted to Judaism and subjected the local Christian community to persecution, reportedly in retribution for the burning of a synagogue.[1] The events comprised episodes involving a massacre of Ethiopians in a Yemen garrison, the destruction of churches, punitive expeditions in a number of regions, and attempts to constrain communities to undergo conversion to Judaism.

                          and....
                          The Christians of Najran were divided into two sects. One drew on a variety of Nestorianism[citation needed], which a local merchant had acquired during a sojourn in al-Hira, and took back to Najran sometime during the reign of the Sassanid ruler Yazdegerd II. The other was a form of anti-Chalcedonianism

                          and according to wiki.....
                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism

                          Nestorius and his teachings were eventually condemned as heretical at the Council of Ephesus in 431, and again at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, which led to the Nestorian Schism; churches supporting Nestorian teachings broke with the rest of the Christian Church.

                          According to history---the Christians of Najran were persecuted by the Jews---NOT by the Prophet (pbuh)...

                          But later...the Christians retaliated...

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraha
                          Dhu Nuwas, the Jewish Himyarite ruler of Yemen, in the period c. 523–525[6] or c. 518–20[1] launched military operations against the Aksumite Christians and their local Arab Christian allies.[7] The Aksumites in Zafar were killed, their fortresses in the Yemeni highlands destroyed, and Najran sacked.

                          Najran fell in 518 or 523 and many members of the Himyarite Christian community were put to death evoking great sympathy throughout the Christian regions of the Orient and prompting an intercontinental Aksumite military intervention using the massive Aksumite fleet aided by a small extra Byzantine fleet first made in 518/523.[7]

                          Procopius identifies Abraha as the former slave of a Roman merchant who did business in Adulis.[8] Later, Abraha was either one of the commanders or a member of one of the armies led by King Kaleb of Axum against Dhu Nuwas.[9] In al-Tabari's history, 'Abraha is said to have been the commander of the second army sent by Kaléb after the first failed, led by 'Ariat.

                          Abraha was reported to have led his army of 100,000 men with hundreds of elephants to successfully crush all resistance of the Yemeni army and then, following the suicide of Dhu Nuwas, seized power and established himself at Sana‘a. He aroused the wrath of Kaléb, however, by withholding tribute who then sent his general 'Ariat to take over the governorship of Yemen. 'Abraha rid himself of the latter by a subterfuge in a duel resulting in 'Ariat being killed and 'Abraha suffering the injury which earned him the sobriquet of al-Asräm, "scar-face."[6]

                          According to Islamic tradition---This same Christian Abraha attacked Mecca in order to convert its inhabitants to Christianity.... The invasion was unsuccessful and eventually...Islam began...and spread in the area....

                          History is complicated

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            History is complicated, I know. Thats why I argue instead from the source documents, ie surah 3 and also from the kerygma of the Injil / New Testament. The Najran Christians, from an examination of sura 3/59-61, clearly & unmistakably believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and this agrees fully with the earliest, first century apostoolic proclamation about Jesus Christ, and reaffirmed in the ecumenical creedal confessions. This stand itself has never been denied by any reputable historian or Biblical scholar to date.

                            Islam also has many divergent creedal and theological histories that are as conflicting and contradictory as its multiple early movements and the incongruent, incoherent and conflicting verses of the Koran, actually resulting in multiple & diverging islams.

                            The divergent theologies and hadiths of variant muslim groups like the Shias, Murjiites, literal kharijites, radical hashhashins, rationalist Mutazilites and mainline sunnites have all pulled early islam and "muslims" into diverging, fragmented and multiple opposing directions with no consensus keeping them together but mutual anathemas and mutual condemnations and violent persecutions against each other. Proving that there was no essential unity nor united theology, hadiths and Quranic and orthodox consistency among the early muslims!

                            Arguing from the Scriptures of Christianity and islam is, for me STILL the safest way to get around all such "complications" of the divergent histories and different versions of islams that have existed from from the existential beginning of islam.

                            The core point is, that the Najran Christians held on steadfastly to the divinity of Jesus Christ and this made muhamed very upset, and unreasonably so, because his preaching to the Christians failed miserably to change their conviction and minds about who Jesus Christ REALLY was!

                            This got him to resort to "mutual" cursing rituals known to the koran and islam as _mubahalah_ . Cursing itself, is a hateful activity as it invokes the wrath, hatred and condemnation of God against a so-called "lying party" according to islam.

                            This only shows the incoherence in understanding of Muhd towards what the earliest Christians actually believed and his intrepid intolerance toward them.

                            This specific muhammadan example serves as the model for muslims to follow in their negative relations with Christians and it is enshrined in the koran for perpetuity. This illogical, suspicious antagonism against Christians is also based not on facts but on a gross misrepresention and misinterpretation of the term "Son of God" found in numerous verses of the koran like 6/101, 72/3-4 etc.

                            That's because the hateful practices of mubahalah i.e. hateful cursing and condemnation, specifically directed against Christians, are embedded in the koran itself and perpetuates antagonism and the deepest antipathy against Christians since the start of muhammadan islam, 1400 years ago.


                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            Najran Christians---There were a diversity of Christianities around the Arabian peninsula and the area around present day Yemen has a particularly complicated history...It was coveted by both the Byzantine and Persian Empires---both of them the superpowers of the time.

                            according to wiki....
                            Commercial reasons probably induced Christians to explore the possibilities in the area at an early period but the first attested Christian mission dates to that of Theophilos the Indian, a Christian of the Arian persuasion, who was active during the reign of Constantius II, and who was reported to have converted the Himyarites around 354/5.

                            In the first quarter of the 6th century, a variety of records refer to a tragic episode in which a local king, Yusuf As'ar Dhu Nuwas, who had converted to Judaism and subjected the local Christian community to persecution, reportedly in retribution for the burning of a synagogue.[1] The events comprised episodes involving a massacre of Ethiopians in a Yemen garrison, the destruction of churches, punitive expeditions in a number of regions, and attempts to constrain communities to undergo conversion to Judaism.

                            and....
                            The Christians of Najran were divided into two sects. One drew on a variety of Nestorianism[citation needed], which a local merchant had acquired during a sojourn in al-Hira, and took back to Najran sometime during the reign of the Sassanid ruler Yazdegerd II. The other was a form of anti-Chalcedonianism

                            and according to wiki.....
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism

                            Nestorius and his teachings were eventually condemned as heretical at the Council of Ephesus in 431, and again at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, which led to the Nestorian Schism; churches supporting Nestorian teachings broke with the rest of the Christian Church.

                            According to history---the Christians of Najran were persecuted by the Jews---NOT by the Prophet (pbuh)...

                            But later...the Christians retaliated...

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraha
                            Dhu Nuwas, the Jewish Himyarite ruler of Yemen, in the period c. 523–525[6] or c. 518–20[1] launched military operations against the Aksumite Christians and their local Arab Christian allies.[7] The Aksumites in Zafar were killed, their fortresses in the Yemeni highlands destroyed, and Najran sacked.

                            Najran fell in 518 or 523 and many members of the Himyarite Christian community were put to death evoking great sympathy throughout the Christian regions of the Orient and prompting an intercontinental Aksumite military intervention using the massive Aksumite fleet aided by a small extra Byzantine fleet first made in 518/523.[7]

                            Procopius identifies Abraha as the former slave of a Roman merchant who did business in Adulis.[8] Later, Abraha was either one of the commanders or a member of one of the armies led by King Kaleb of Axum against Dhu Nuwas.[9] In al-Tabari's history, 'Abraha is said to have been the commander of the second army sent by Kaléb after the first failed, led by 'Ariat.

                            Abraha was reported to have led his army of 100,000 men with hundreds of elephants to successfully crush all resistance of the Yemeni army and then, following the suicide of Dhu Nuwas, seized power and established himself at Sana‘a. He aroused the wrath of Kaléb, however, by withholding tribute who then sent his general 'Ariat to take over the governorship of Yemen. 'Abraha rid himself of the latter by a subterfuge in a duel resulting in 'Ariat being killed and 'Abraha suffering the injury which earned him the sobriquet of al-Asräm, "scar-face."[6]

                            According to Islamic tradition---This same Christian Abraha attacked Mecca in order to convert its inhabitants to Christianity.... The invasion was unsuccessful and eventually...Islam began...and spread in the area....

                            History is complicated

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Another terrorist attack in London by a known Muslim violent extremist fanatic. This time, a REPEAT offender who had to be tagged to track this religious, islamist crazy activities..

                              One wonders if giving such fundamentalist Muslims the freedoms of 2nd, 3rd etc chances will really help to reform them to better & so-called "peaceful" behaviour - as is claimed by islam (the so-called religion of "peace"), but, NO, it obviously is not going to happen. These Islamic fanatics just continue to function as islam commands them - to radical violence as per normal!

                              This is undeniable proof positive, that the koran instils fear, hatred and violence to all fundamental Muslims. Who have but to obey these commands in order to please Allah, their God.

                              https://news.sky.com/story/london-br...shots-11873515

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                An update by the Assistant Commissioner of Police on the terrorist attack in London:

                                https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...erything-know/

                                One wonders if such religiously inspired violence will stop under a secular state regime.


                                Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                                Another terrorist attack in London by a known Muslim violent extremist fanatic. This time, a REPEAT offender who had to be tagged to track this religious, islamist crazy activities..

                                One wonders if giving such fundamentalist Muslims the freedoms of 2nd, 3rd etc chances will really help to reform them to better & so-called "peaceful" behaviour - as is claimed by islam (the so-called religion of "peace"), but, NO, it obviously is not going to happen. These Islamic fanatics just continue to function as islam commands them - to radical violence as per normal!

                                This is undeniable proof positive, that the koran instils fear, hatred and violence to all fundamental Muslims. Who have but to obey these commands in order to please Allah, their God.

                                https://news.sky.com/story/london-br...shots-11873515

                                Comment

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