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A human life _usually_ begins at conception ...

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  • A human life _usually_ begins at conception ...

    It's a common theme here that a human life begins at conception, with one egg and one sperm making a single entity with new, unique DNA therefore [insert argument here].

    Identical twins show that a human life doesn't always begin at conception - sometimes it begins a few days later when the zygote splits into two or more separate zygotes. One egg and one sperm makes two, three or more entities with new, non-unique DNA. They're common enough that anyone using the above argument should know better.

    Occasionally these are conjoined. One egg and one sperm making a single entity new, unique DNA that is usually considered to be two people - especially if they're separated after birth. This isn't as common, but it's well-enough known that again the arguer should be aware of it. When does a human life begin in this case?

    Here's another scenario. One egg and two sperm makes one entity with too much new, unique DNA that might* divide into two entities with different DNA. When does a human life begin here?

    Real life is messy. Any argument that relies on a human life beginning at conception won't necessarily apply in these cases - with consequences that mean the argument is at best incomplete. And since these cases are known to science, anyone invoking "Science" to support the claim that a human life starts at the moment egg and sperm combine doesn't know what the science is.

    Which reminds me - most of those making these arguments also believe that humans have some form of soul or spirit that is independent of the body. When and how does that happen during the usual development process? When and how does it happen in these rare cases?




    *But probably won't.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

  • #2
    It's asexual reproduction. Or cloning.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
      It's asexual reproduction. Or cloning.
      Not in the last example. Or for conjoined twins, for that matter.

      Also, you neglected to say when a human life begins in these cases.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • #4
        In each case, a life begins at conception. That it might become two (or three) at a very early stage in no way negates that. Was this supposed to be a stumper of a question?
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #5
          This is a useful and interesting discussion. I'm wondering of the Civics crowd can discuss it with civility.
          "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
          Hear my cry, hear my shout,
          Save me, save me"

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          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            In each case, a life begins at conception. That it might become two (or three) at a very early stage in no way negates that. Was this supposed to be a stumper of a question?
            "... a life begins at conception".

            When do the other lives begin? Can you tell which one began at conception, and which began later?

            It's not supposed to be a stumper of a question. Just a reminder that implicit assumptions that don't always hold can invalidate arguments.

            (Though the soul question seems to stump everyone - not even the RCC has an answer for that one).
            Last edited by Roy; 02-28-2019, 11:14 AM.
            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

            Comment


            • #7
              Ooh! Maybe the reason the embryo splits is that there were two souls that each needed a body with the same genetic material! Now, things really get weird when two embryos combine into one embryo. Does one embryo effectively die as a person to become part of another person?
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                "... a life begins at conception".

                When do the other lives begin?
                When the single one splits.
                Can you tell which one began at conception, and which began later?
                Probably not. But not relevant at all. 2 can't come from 0.

                It's not supposed to be a stumper of a question. Just a reminder that implicit assumptions that don't always hold can invalidate arguments.
                But not in this case.

                (Though the soul question seems to stump everyone - not even the RCC has an answer for that one).
                Doesn't stump me.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                • #9
                  why is this in civics instead of Nat Sci?


                  and didn't we already argue this with Oxmix in the other thread?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    why is this in civics instead of Nat Sci?
                    Probably because it relates to the issue of abortion.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      (Though the soul question seems to stump everyone - not even the RCC has an answer for that one).
                      As far as I can tell, the early church generally held that it occurred at conception, that being the most logical assumption. Those who dissented from that view generally held that all souls were created at the moment of creation, and became associated with the body at conception; this view was associated with Origen, and eventually condemned as heretical IIRC.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        As far as I can tell, the early church generally held that it occurred at conception, that being the most logical assumption. Those who dissented from that view generally held that all souls were created at the moment of creation, and became associated with the body at conception; this view was associated with Origen, and eventually condemned as heretical IIRC.
                        I think the best answer is that we don't actually know simply because we don't have enough information, but it doesn't matter.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          One soul becomes two souls, just as one person becomes two people once the zygote splits and separates. (or 3 or 4)

                          It doesn't seem to be that hard of problem.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            I think the best answer is that we don't actually know simply because we don't have enough information, but it doesn't matter.

                            And shouldn't we err on the side of caution.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              I think the best answer is that we don't actually know simply because we don't have enough information, but it doesn't matter.
                              It seems to me that it would only matter to those looking for a guilt-free means for terminating a pregnancy, which is antithetical to values found in both Old and New Testaments.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment

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