A human life _usually_ begins at conception ...

[Roy]

Actually, there was a lengthy thread on the old forum about HeLa cells that I and MM, among others, participated in. And it was in the course of that discussion that I learned about them and their origins and behaviors. It isn't a bad thing to be introduced to something and see how it affects the direction of your arguments.

I don't remember that thread - I doubt I was involved. I concede that MM may have mentioned them before somewhere.

[Mountain Man]

Ok. HeLa cells are not humans. But they are organisms...

Nope. I have been unable to find a single source that refers to HeLa cells as "organisms" or "lifeforms". According to this posting from a molecular biologist, cancer cells are not organisms despite having some "organism-like features".

[Bill the Cat]

Nope. I have been unable to find a single source that refers to HeLa cells as "organisms" or "lifeforms". According to this posting from a molecular biologist, cancer cells are not organisms despite having some "organism-like features".

Take a gander at the Discovery Magazine article I cited in #185. Pretty fascinating stuff.

[Roy]

Nope. I have been unable to find a single source that refers to HeLa cells as "organisms" or "lifeforms".

Then you're breathtakingly incompetent.

Source: https://www.archivesofpathology.org/doi/pdf/10.1043/1543-2165-133.9.1463

Has Henrietta Lacks’ ‘‘germ plasm’’ or ‘‘embryonic substance’’ (her DNA) provided her with an unbroken, unaltered chain to the present day so that we can claim that HeLa cells are Henrietta Lacks? Or, has her DNA evolved into a new entity—Helacyton gartleri has been suggested44—after countless cell culture passages, viral infections, and other cell line contaminants? Although the question of whether or not such a new species has evolved in the cell cultures of laboratories around the world is difficult to answer, as molecular Arch Pathol Lab Med—Vol 133, September 2009 HeLa Cells and Cell Culture Contamination—Lucey et al 1467 biology continues to expand the frontiers of our knowledge at breathtaking speed, this question may need to be answered to fully comprehend both the findings of experiments performed on HeLa cells and the ethical implications of creating what may be regarded as a new organism.

© Copyright Original Source

According to this posting from a molecular biologist, cancer cells are not organisms despite having some "organism-like features".

She's not talking about HeLa cells.

Unlike Bill, you haven't posted anything that gives the slightest indication that you even know what HeLa cells are. You haven't even checked Bill's link:

These little unicellular organisms have crossed oceans, spread their range, got into other cultures and outcompeted them, says Richard Strathmann, a marine biologist at the University of Washington’s Friday Harbor Laboratories who dabbles in evolutionary theory.

If you want to insist that HeLa cells aren't organisms, demonstrate that HeLa cells lack some characteristics possessed by organisms such as amoebae, human zygotes and bacteria. Otherwise I'll write you off (again) as a wilfully ignorant buffoon.

[Mountain Man]

Then you're breathtakingly incompetent.
[cite=https://www.archivesofpathology.org/doi/pdf/10.1043/1543-2165-133.9.1463]Has Henrietta Lacks’ ‘‘germ plasm’’ or ‘‘embryonic substance’’ (her DNA) provided her with an unbroken, unaltered chain to the present day so that we can claim that HeLa cells are Henrietta Lacks? Or, has her DNA evolved into a new entity—Helacyton gartleri has been suggested44—after countless cell culture passages, viral infections, and other cell line contaminants? Although the question of whether or not such a new species has evolved in the cell cultures of laboratories around the world is difficult to answer, as molecular Arch Pathol Lab Med—Vol 133, September 2009 HeLa Cells and Cell Culture Contamination—Lucey et al 1467 biology continues to expand the frontiers of our knowledge at breathtaking speed, this question may need to be answered to fully comprehend both the findings of experiments performed on HeLa cells and the ethical implications of creating what may be regarded as a new organism.[cite]She's not talking about HeLa cells.

Unlike Bill, you haven't posted anything that gives the slightest indication that you even know what HeLa cells are.

If you want to insist that HeLa cells aren't organisms, demonstrate that HeLa cells lack some characteristics possessed by organisms such as amoebae, human zygotes and bacteria.

Your first link is to a forum thread where the debate goes back and forth with one person saying that it's like asking whether or not Pluto is a planet: "Some say yes, some say no." Your second says that researchers refer to it as in organism in jest. Your third link doesn't say anything one way or another about whether HeLa cells are organisms. Your fourth link refers to them offhandedly as "organisms" but doesn't present an argument for the designation and says that, in fact, HeLa cells are "substantially different from ordinary human cells". Your fifth link which you cited above leaves it as an open question.

So...

[Roy]

I have been unable to find a single source that refers to HeLa cells as "organisms" or "lifeforms".

Your third link doesn't say anything one way or another about whether HeLa cells are organisms. Your fourth link refers to them offhandedly as "organisms" but doesn't present an argument for the designation and says that, in fact, HeLa cells are "substantially different from ordinary human cells". Your fifth link which you cited above leaves it as an open question.

So...

So I'm being called 'ignorant' by a wilfully ignorant and breathtakingly incompetent buffoon who not only couldn't find a source they'd just been given a link to, but has just read the same thing twice without noticing.

I'm not wasting any more time.

[Mountain Man]

So I'm being called 'ignorant' by a wilfully ignorant and breathtakingly incompetent buffoon who not only couldn't find a source they'd just been given a link to, but has just read the same thing twice without noticing.

I'm not wasting any more time.

I looked through a dozen or so sources from an internet search and didn't see anything definitive, and the half-dozen sources you provided don't say anything definitive, so don't get huffy at me when I tell you that they don't say anything definitive.

[Roy]

I have been unable to find a single source that refers to HeLa cells as "organisms" or "lifeforms".

I looked through a dozen or so sources from an internet search...

Most people wanting to find out whether HeLa cells are organisms would have searched for "are HeLa cells organisms", and found multiple sources that refer to HeLa cells as "organisms".

That's clearly beyond you.

Unsurprisingly, searching for "are HeLa cells organisms" on Breitbart gives no results.

[Mountain Man]

Most people wanting to find out whether HeLa cells are organisms would have searched for "are HeLa cells organisms", and found multiple sources that refer to HeLa cells as "organisms".

Really. And is that why even your own sources don't make a definitive statement one way or the other and concede that they are "substantially different from ordinary human cells"?

Looks like Ignorant Roy just scored another own-goal.

[Roy]

I have been unable to find a single source that refers to HeLa cells as "organisms" or "lifeforms".

Most people wanting to find out whether HeLa cells are organisms would have searched for "are HeLa cells organisms", and found multiple sources that refer to HeLa cells as "organisms".

Really.

Yes, really. That's how I found things that you couldn't. That's why you're breathtakingly incompetent.

And is that why even your own sources don't make a definitive statement one way or the other and concede that they are "substantially different from ordinary human cells"?

Looks like Ignorant Roy just scored another own-goal.

No, looks like your own-goal. You can't work out that something can be "substantially different from ordinary human cells" yet still be an organism - or that in order to survive as an independent organism, HeLa cells have to be different from ordinary human cells.