The Golden Rule

[seer]

We all know the golden rule. It has been around for centuries in both the east and the west. But in the late 70's I worked with men that had their own golden rule - do unto others before the do unto you (they actually went around and saying this) . And they practice it. They were cut throat in buisness. Mostly unethical, and often illegal. But their crimes were often low key, and only one I know of was ever arrested.

Now these men are in their late 70's or early 80's and they are retired (we all had good union jobs back then with good retirement plans) and along with the ill gotten gains, they are now very well off - they have large bank accounts, beautiful homes, and sent their kids to the finest colleges. And they take great vacations, and most likely sleep like newborn infants. They are happy - as far as one can tell - they had learned the secret of life. Do unto others before they do unto you. They did what they had too for themselves and their families.

They won! And they won by both hard work and by being unethical and illegal - what can the non-theist say to them?

[Jme]

BAD THEM! BAD THEM!

What else do you want us to say.

What are you going to say? My god is going to smite you good!

What you're right and one repents near the end? They get saved, that doesn't seem fair.

What is your problem with morality Seer? Why can't you accept that some people don't need threats to behave themselves?

That they can be good people because they want to be, because they have decided that being nice is a good thing to be. Just get over it, please!

Oh and if you knew what they were doing and did nothing then you're complicit. You did bad, you had the responisbility to stop them. BAD YOU! BAD YOU!

[seer]

You do not have an answer Jmebob - because they won. And yes, the fact that men will come into judgement can turn some - but more importantly - evil will not remain unopposed or unexposed in my world. Justice, in one way or the other, will win out.

Oh and if you knew what they were doing and did nothing then you're complicit. You did bad, you had the responisbility to stop them. BAD YOU! BAD YOU!

No - I was part of it all. I took it to far - I was the one arrested...

[Jme]

You do not have an answer Jmebob - because they won.

Yes I do, you asked what would you say to them. Nothing more can be said to them, therapy may help. Instil some morals in them, let them meet the victims see what they had done. Change the structure of the business to make it harder for others to get away with the same thing.

Look there are bad people out there that will take advantage of others, and there are a lot more of them who are theists (a guess but looking at the numbers that believe something, it seems a reasonable one.)

And yes, the fact that men will come into judgement can turn some - but more importantly - evil will not remain unopposed or unexposed in my world. Justice, in one way or the other, will win out.

"There is no justice, only death."

All you have is an empty threat of possible badness to happen later to keep them in check. That if they're good and nice and follow some rules then maybe they'll get a reward.

I'm better than that, I do things because I think they're right (most of the time, sometimes I don't do them) not for a possible reward.

[seer]

All you have is an empty threat of possible badness to happen later to keep them in check. That if they're good and nice and follow some rules then maybe they'll get a reward.

Yes I have the future reality of universal judgement - and you have nothing.

I'm better than that, I do things because I think they're right (most of the time, sometimes I don't do them) not for a possible reward.

Right according to whom? These men did what was right for them and their families.

[LGM]

No - I was part of it all. I took it to far - I was the one arrested...

Good! Our police and justice systems do work. Too bad they didn't arrest and imprison all of you. Or was it really just you who was the criminal?

Now while you were out commiting crimes, and doing drugs, and being sexually promiscuous, and serving time, others of us were working our way through college and graduate schools, studying hard, being disciplined, saving our money, building ethical businesses that have created many jobs, tax revenues and benefits for our fellow man. We have been loyal husbands and good fathers and good providers. Our children are following our example and are focused on their schoolwork and music and athletics.

Yet you, in your corrupt failure of a life, think you can sit in judgement of us, simply because you now declare your "faith". That this simple cognitive act makes you so much better than those of us who played by the rules our whole lives, and our now quite happy with the results.

LGM
...pathetic, bitter, self-righteous and egotistical faith only makes you a better person in your own mind...

[Vorkosigan]

They won! And they won by both hard work and by being unethical and illegal - what can the non-theist say to them?

I dunno. I never met a Christian preacher who would let me get a word in edgewise.

[EvoUK]

Yes I have the future reality of universal judgement - and you have nothing.

yes, you have the claim that your god will reward belief, and punish unbelief when we die (supposedly). perhaps you can explain how this is a... "good" moral system?

"believe in me or burn forever in everlasting torment"

as an aside- here are some quotes from other religious texts about the golden rule:

Bahá'í World Faith: "Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah
"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

Brahmanism: "This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517
Buddhism: "...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18

and, just so we don't just have religious texts- here's one from humanism:

Humanism: "(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity."
"(11) Humanists affirm that individual and social problems can only be resolved by means of human reason, intelligent effort, critical thinking joined with compassion and a spirit of empathy for all living beings. "

those, and many more can be found here:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm

so your religion is somehow "unique" in this belief... why..?

[seer]

yes, you have the claim that your god will reward belief, and punish unbelief when we die (supposedly). perhaps you can explain how this is a... "good" moral system?

"believe in me or burn forever in everlasting torment"

as an aside- here are some quotes from other religious texts about the golden rule:



and, just so we don't just have religious texts- here's one from humanism:



those, and many more can be found here:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm

so your religion is somehow "unique" in this belief... why..?

Gee Evo, what on earth this this have to do with my original post? And yes someday God will remove all those who reject His love from the universe. We will finally have universal brotherhood and love.

[LGM]

Gee Evo, what on earth this this have to do with my original post? And yes someday God will remove all those who reject His love from the universe. We will finally have universal brotherhood and love.

I wonder what a loveless and bitter misanthrope will be doing in a place of "universal brotherhood and love"?

LGM
...I guess they'll still need someone to sweep up...

[chsalvia]

Seer...don't you ever get bored of this? I mean seriously...these threads are getting so boring now. There's so many more interesting topics to discuss.

These constant questions that you keep asking basically amount to "why should anyone bother being moral without the threat of God?"

But what is your goal here with all this? Do you want to make all non-theists say "you know, Seer is right! With no threat of God, I should just go around stealing and hurting people!"

Why can't you understand that many people behave morally simply because they like to? - because it pleases them to hold moral principles.

I don't need a God to threaten me in order to be good. I like to adopt moral principles. It makes me feel more satisfied and gives me a sense of self-worth. And that's the only justification I need.

What can you say against that?

It's not my problem that other people act immorally and get away with it. We set up laws and authorities to deal with that sort of thing.

[SlipSlidin'Away]

Seer,

I'm sorry to hear about your experience with injustice.

May God heal your heart and give you peace.

May God also grant you as much grace, mercy, compassion and forgiveness in the next world that you have granted others in this one.

[EvoUK]

Gee Evo, what on earth this this have to do with my original post?

oh, I don’t know- do you think perhaps it might have more to do with the part of your post I was quoting?

yes someday God will remove all those who reject His love from the universe.

the point I was making is that this has absolutely nothing to do with justice for doing wrong at all. it is merely reduced to a punishment for non-belief. All of your other sins can be forgiven- the punishment is for non-belief, not immoral behaviour.

We will finally have universal brotherhood and love.

I am so glad I don’t share the sort of love where I am actually glad that the vast majorety of the earths population is sent into everlasting torment for the paltry “sin” of non-belief. It is a morally abhorrent concept.

[seer]

the point I was making is that this has absolutely nothing to do with justice for doing wrong at all. it is merely reduced to a punishment for non-belief. All of your other sins can be forgiven- the punishment is for non-belief, not immoral behaviour.

It is much more that non-belief. It is non-love. Christ said that the greatest thing was to love God with all your heart. Love is what connects with God {and our fellow man) - and without that connection we just fade to black - being disconnected from the source of life.

I am so glad I don’t share the sort of love where I am actually glad that the vast majorety of the earths population is sent into everlasting torment for the paltry “sin” of non-belief. It is a morally abhorrent concept.

EVO, I and many christians to not believe in eternal torment. I did a post on the theology board "Thoughts on the Eternity of Hell." I have yet to be refuted. So don't assume that all christians hold to eternal conscious torment.

http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=667

[seer]

Yet you, in your corrupt failure of a life, think you can sit in judgement of us, simply because you now declare your "faith". That this simple cognitive act makes you so much better than those of us who played by the rules our whole lives, and our now quite happy with the results.

I have told you the bad LG. Now let me tell you some of the good. I enlisted in the US Marines during the Vietnam war - at 19 I was the youngest tank commander in my Battalion - promoted twice meritoriously. I was a paid firefighter for ten years - with many awards for life saving and bravery. There are people walking around today only because of my direct efforts- how many lives have you saved LG? I worked with the mentally ill for eight years - that is how I received the ruptured disks I told you about - they were highly agressive.

Having said that it is not me who sits in judgement of you - it is God's word:

Romans 3

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.