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The book Darwin Devolves

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  • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    They are usually selected, says Behe, because it's a lot easier to degrade or break something, and evolution can often use desperate measures.

    Source: Darwin Devolves


    if an unneeded gene were active, breaking it would turn it off, saving energy. ....

    © Copyright Original Source

    If an unneeded gene were active, breaking it would only cause a different protein to be produced, which takes the same amount of energy. The net energy change from subsequent effects of the protein could go in either direction or none, depending on the chemical properties of the new protein. If an unneeded gene were active, breaking the controls to make it inactive would save energy, but that's not the same as breaking the gene.

    Behe is simply wrong.
    Well, yes, I should have added hypomorphs, they also are difficult to undo.
    But not as difficult to undo as nullifying mutations, which is why they were mentioned in the first place.

    Just keep swimming, Dory, just keep swimming ...
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      Yes, it's the best I could find, where bacteria start mutating at a 20x rate than normal.
      That article does not say that the bacteria mutate at a rate faster than normal.

      This is why Dory's claim to be interested in the truth in itself a lie.

      He's not interested in the truth, he's only interested in finding something that he can use to support his misconceptions. Once that has been found, he doesn't bother looking any further. He doesn't check other sources for confirmation. He doesn't even read the rest of the source he's citing. So he doesn't notice that the article only says that bacteria evolve faster than they would normally, and doesn't mention mutation rates. He also doesn't know much about science - not even how ignorant of it he is. That's why most of his claims can be refuted trivially, as this is has been, simply by checking what his source actually says.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Roy View Post
        That article does not say that the bacteria mutate at a rate faster than normal.

        This is why Dory's claim to be interested in the truth in itself a lie.
        For those who can't be bothered to read the press release, its point seems to be that the mutations that allow bacteria to enter a dormant state in response to antibiotic treatment are also partially adaptive towards resistance. Thus, among dormant bacteria, the evolution of resistance is much faster, since they're already partially selected for it.

        It's a somewhat subtle distinction, but one Lee bulldozed right over on his way to satisfying his confirmation bias.


        EDIT: anyone want to give odds on the possibility Lee will acknowledge this and apologize for making us waste time reading an irrelevant press release?
        Last edited by TheLurch; 04-12-2019, 08:42 AM.
        "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

        Comment


        • I like Lee. If nothing else he's a brother in Christ. But it really does seem that he is only capable of observing any and all evidence through a lens of his own preconceptions.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
            No, they're not. That was the whole point off that extensive list of ways you can increase the activity of a hypomorph.
            And my response was that these sorts of changes are unlikely.

            There are absolutely no numbers there from which you can derive "more than half". You also don't know anything about whether the mutations were reverted, suppressed elsewhere, or what - it literally says "the workers didn't explicitly test for it."
            I was gearing off "(mostly) decreased them".

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Roy View Post
              If an unneeded gene were active, breaking it would only cause a different protein to be produced, which takes the same amount of energy. The net energy change from subsequent effects of the protein could go in either direction or none, depending on the chemical properties of the new protein. If an unneeded gene were active, breaking the controls to make it inactive would save energy, but that's not the same as breaking the gene.
              But by "breaking a gene", Behe means turning its control on or off completely: "if an unneeded gene were active, breaking it would turn it off, saving energy. If a gene that would help make a useful product to outcompete other bugs were normally turned off, breaking the controls so the product would be made continuously would be beneficial. There are many circumstances in which getting rid of something can be helpful. And the more complicated and sophisticated a system, the more ways it can be broken in more situations to yield an advantage."

              But not as difficult to undo as nullifying mutations, which is why they were mentioned in the first place.
              Agreed.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                It's a somewhat subtle distinction, but one Lee bulldozed right over on his way to satisfying his confirmation bias.

                EDIT: anyone want to give odds on the possibility Lee will acknowledge this and apologize for making us waste time reading an irrelevant press release?
                I apologize, here is a better reference to bacterial hypermutation.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  But by "breaking a gene", Behe means turning its control on or off completely:
                  Then he shouldn't have said "breaking a gene", since that implies the gene is changed, not its control mechanism. He later writes "breaking the controls" to mean turning them permanently on, so he clearly knows the difference - and Dory clearly didn't read the rest of the paragraph.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    I apologize, here is a better reference to bacterial hypermutation.
                    Going on vacation, so unlikely to engage much here for a bit, but thank you for this.
                    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      And my response was that these sorts of changes are unlikely.
                      Based on what? With that many mechanisms, the probability goes up considerably.

                      Did you realize that there are typically multiple duplications in every human that weren't present in either parent? Now imagine how common duplicated genes are in something like E. coli.

                      That's biology. What do you base your "unlikely" on?
                      "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                        Based on what? With that many mechanisms, the probability goes up considerably.

                        Did you realize that there are typically multiple duplications in every human that weren't present in either parent? Now imagine how common duplicated genes are in something like E. coli.

                        That's biology. What do you base your "unlikely" on?
                        I brought this up long ago in reference to the evolution of the eye, and other examples, and it was side stepped and conveniently ignored.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                          Did you realize that there are typically multiple duplications in every human that weren't present in either parent? Now imagine how common duplicated genes are in something like E. coli.
                          No, I wasn't aware of that.

                          What do you base your "unlikely" on?
                          Well for one:

                          Source: Lehigh response

                          The rate of any particular gene suffering a degradative mutation is expected to be about a hundred times faster than duplication. Thus every gene that could help by being degraded would have an average of 100 chances to do so for every one chance another gene would have that could help by duplicating.

                          Source

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Enjoy your vacation!

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Many of the mutations relevant to evolution begin with combinations of neutral mutations, and doubling of gene sequences as with the evolution of the eye. The mutations Behe refers to is a side show and not even involved in evolution.
                            Well, a simple description such as you give here, apparently won't do:

                            Source: Utah.edu

                            Piecing together the sequence of eye evolution is challenging, and we don't know the sequence of steps that led to every modern eye.

                            Source

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Well, a simple description such as you give here, apparently won't do:

                              Source: Utah.edu

                              Piecing together the sequence of eye evolution is challenging, and we don't know the sequence of steps that led to every modern eye.

                              Source

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              It is not a simple issue, and yes it is a complicated and challenging one, so what?!?!?!!!?, but one sound bite , as usual cannot support your argument. The duplication of genes and the effects are well documented in the evolution of the eye.

                              As already documented the duplication of genes is a common mutation.

                              Is 'arguing from ignorance' the only trump card you can play?
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-13-2019, 05:13 PM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                As already documented the duplication of genes is a common mutation.
                                About 1 per gene per 100 million years! In eukaryotes...

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

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