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Thread: The book Darwin Devolves

  1. #291
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    Checking Dory's source exposes that this is the fixation rate, not the occurrence rate. It's also, as he noted, the per gene rate, not the rate for the entire genome.

    Factoring in the current human population and number of genes, with an approximated generation time of 25 years, gives an estimated rate of gene duplication mutations in humans of about seventy thousand every year. That's almost enough to duplicate every gene three times.

    That differs from Dory's suggested commonality by 13 orders of magnitude.
    Which would make the human genome project impossible. But I believe the 1 in 100 million years is a population fixation rate per gene.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. #292
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Which would make the human genome project impossible. But I believe the 1 in 100 million years is a population fixation rate per gene.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    You may believe this, but . . . not supported by a legitimate scientific reference not quoted out of context, which is your modus oporandi.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #293
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    You may believe this, but . . . not supported by a legitimate scientific reference not quoted out of context, which is your modus oporandi.
    How have I misquoted the reference?

    Source: Zhang

    Lynch and Conery estimated that gene duplication arises (and is fixed in populations) at an approximate rate of 1 gene-1 100 million years (MY)-1 in eukaryotes such as Homo sapiens, Mus musculus, D. melanogaster, Caenorhabditis elegans…

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source

    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  4. #294
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    How have I misquoted the reference?

    Source: Zhang

    Lynch and Conery estimated that gene duplication arises (and is fixed in populations) at an approximate rate of 1 gene-1 100 million years (MY)-1 in eukaryotes such as Homo sapiens, Mus musculus, D. melanogaster, Caenorhabditis elegans…

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source

    Yes, as Roy pointed out unethical dishonest selective citation to justify your religious agenda.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #295
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Checking Dory's source exposes that this is the fixation rate, not the occurrence rate. It's also, as he noted, the per gene rate, not the rate for the entire genome.

    Factoring in the current human population and number of genes, with an approximated generation time of 25 years, gives an estimated rate of gene duplication mutations in humans of about seventy thousand every year. That's almost enough to duplicate every gene three times.

    That differs from Dory's suggested commonality by 13 orders of magnitude.
    Which would make the human genome project impossible.
    It wouldn't, of course, since that still leaves 280 million people born every year who don't have a gene duplication. The HGP can (and did) simply note what gene set is possessed by more than 99.9% of the population.

    Your objection is akin to claiming it's impossible to know how many fingers humans have because some people are amputees.
    But I believe the 1 in 100 million years is a population fixation rate per gene.
    What you believe is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    How have I misquoted the reference?
    You've quoted it correctly. But you've shown no sign of understanding what it means, and several signs of not having the faintest idea.
    Last edited by Roy; 04-16-2019 at 03:09 AM.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

  6. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  7. #296
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    In the book Darwin Devolves, Behe mentions work by Thornton that states that evolution doesn't seem to have a reverse:

    Source: Thornton


    Whether evolution can go back to an ancestral structure just by reversing the selection pressure on function has been a long-standing issue, but one hard to address based on just the history of forms. Bridgham et al. have now physically reconstituted ancient versions of a regulatory protein ... They find that amino acids that were essential in an ancestral protein become neutral in a more recent form, where they are then subject to erosion by genetic drift. This loss deprives natural selection of the necessary raw material with which to reverse the historical substitutions — they are no longer 'adaptive' as they were in the other direction. Evolutionarily speaking, there is no turning back.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    Behe writes:

    Source: Darwin Devolves

    In fact, they predict that further work “will support a molecular version of Dollo’s Law.” That is, “as evolution proceeds, shifts in protein structure-function relations become increasingly difficult to reverse.” If they are right, as there is every reason to think, the results throttle Darwinian evolution even further.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    Last edited by lee_merrill; 04-20-2019 at 07:27 PM.
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  8. #297
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    In the book Darwin Devolves, Behe mentions work by Thornton that states that evolution doesn't seem to have a reverse:

    Source: Thornton


    Whether evolution can go back to an ancestral structure just by reversing the selection pressure on function has been a long-standing issue, but one hard to address based on just the history of forms. Bridgham et al. have now physically reconstituted ancient versions of a regulatory protein ... They find that amino acids that were essential in an ancestral protein become neutral in a more recent form, where they are then subject to erosion by genetic drift. This loss deprives natural selection of the necessary raw material with which to reverse the historical substitutions — they are no longer 'adaptive' as they were in the other direction. Evolutionarily speaking, there is no turning back.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    Behe writes:

    Source: Darwin Devolves

    In fact, they predict that further work “will support a molecular version of Dollo’s Law.” That is, “as evolution proceeds, shifts in protein structure-function relations become increasingly difficult to reverse.” If they are right, as there is every reason to think, the results throttle Darwinian evolution even further.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    As clearly demonstrated by The Lurch and Roy Behe clearly unethically and selectively abuses science for a religious agenda, and you persist in mindlessly citing his trash.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. #298
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    In the book Darwin Devolves, Behe mentions work by Thornton that states that evolution doesn't seem to have a reverse:
    Right. It's difficult to reverse a whole series of adaptive or neutral changes.

    So what?
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

  10. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  11. #299
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    In the book Darwin Devolves, Behe mentions work by Thornton that states that evolution doesn't seem to have a reverse:

    Source: Thornton


    Whether evolution can go back to an ancestral structure just by reversing the selection pressure on function has been a long-standing issue, but one hard to address based on just the history of forms. Bridgham et al. have now physically reconstituted ancient versions of a regulatory protein ... They find that amino acids that were essential in an ancestral protein become neutral in a more recent form, where they are then subject to erosion by genetic drift. This loss deprives natural selection of the necessary raw material with which to reverse the historical substitutions — they are no longer 'adaptive' as they were in the other direction. Evolutionarily speaking, there is no turning back.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    Behe writes:

    Source: Darwin Devolves

    In fact, they predict that further work “will support a molecular version of Dollo’s Law.” That is, “as evolution proceeds, shifts in protein structure-function relations become increasingly difficult to reverse.” If they are right, as there is every reason to think, the results throttle Darwinian evolution even further.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    In more careful reading, evolution is not dependent on nor is their any concept of a reversal. Hiw is this meaningful to the discussion?
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  12. #300
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    Right. It's difficult to reverse a whole series of adaptive or neutral changes.

    So what?
    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon
    Hiw is this meaningful to the discussion?
    So evolution would tend to get stuck, even if selective pressure was reversed, it would be difficult for the mutations to reverse.

    Source: Darwin Devolves

    If they are right, as there is every reason to think, the results throttle Darwinian evolution even further.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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