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Thread: Answering An Argument Against God's Ordination of All Things

  1. #101
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Obviously.
    "For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:

    'There is no one righteous, not even one;
    there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
    All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one.' " (Rom. 3:9–12)

    It is written that all have sinned; it is not written that all do only sin.
    "... and everything that does not come from faith is sin." (Rom. 14:23)

    Since when did doing what is right make a person righteous?
    "The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous." (1 Jn. 3:7)

    The unrighteous can do what is right from time to time. The gentiles don't hate everyone, for example. Altruism is not exclusive to Christians.
    "The righteous care for the needs of their animals,
    but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel." (Pr. 12:10)

    Pharaoh would not let them go. Strike one.
    (miracle 1) Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let them go. Strike 2.
    (Miracle 2) Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let them go. Strike 3
    (Miracle 3) The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
    The Biblical record itself shows that the Lord didn’t harden pharaoh’s heart on the first two occasions.
    After the staffs became snakes: "Yet Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Ex. 7:13)
    After the Nile became blood: "Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Ex. 7:22)
    After the frogs: "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Ex. 8:15)

    So only after the third miracle do we see any clear indication that Pharaoh hardened his heart. And what is it that the Lord said?

    "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land.
    But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt." (Ex. 7:2–3)

    So "as the Lord had said" refers to "I will harden Pharaoh's heart"! So even when Pharaoh hardens his heart, "as the Lord had said" shows us that God is behind this, hardening Pharaoh's heart.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. #102
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    Clever, but not convincing.

    God ordains all things, including pre-eminent sins like the Crucifixion. But in no sense is God the Author of evil. Man is always totally answerable to God for all the use he makes of the graces God gives him - that God’s Providence rules all things and cannot be frustrated, does not in the least excuse us from whatever blame is due us for our sins.
    Can God's plan to allow people to do evil be described as ordaining something?

    If God ordained that people would crucify Jesus, how did God go about carrying out what He ordained? Did He allow them to act according to their desires and not allow anything to stop them?
    Last edited by Hornet; 04-09-2019 at 08:56 PM.

  3. Amen tabibito amen'd this post.
  4. #103
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    "For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:
    ~~
    Lee
    Right now, I have assignments due. I'll get back to this later.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  5. #104
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Right now, I have assignments due. I'll get back to this later.
    All right, best wishes with your studies...
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  6. #105
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    There is an argument I heard that is against the view that God ordains everything that comes to pass. How would you respond to it?

    If God ordains everything that comes to pass, then God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances.
    If God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances, then sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances.
    If sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances, then this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.

    Conclusion: If God ordains everything that comes to pass, hen this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.
    God ordains many things that are contrary to His Will. To ordain X, is to give X a place in the Divine Purpose - it is not an endorsement of it. Atrocities like the Shoah, with all the misery bound up with it, are given a place in God’s Purpose, so they are said to be ordained by Him. Such things as the Shoah are atrocious, wicked, sinful; but they are not meaningless. No evil, no matter how great, is meaningless. The Power of God is so unboundedly great, that it is within His Power to turn even the most enormous crimes and evils into means by which He acts.

    God does not, as it were, simply allow these evils - not if by that one means that God folds His hands, sits back, and does nothing. God, Who is always working, works not only in and through good things, but in and through evil things as well. God works even in, and through, the worst that human or demonic sin can do, to do all His Holy and Glorious Will despite all that the wickedness of perverse creatures can devise. Even over all sin, His Power is complete. God cannot be shut out of His own creation, that exists by His Word, His Will, His favour alone. Not even the malice and perversity of sin and sinners can be outside God’s Kingship. The malice and perversity of sin serve His Will despite themselves - the hatred of Joseph’s brothers made him a slave, but only so that he might become second only to Pharaoh, and use his power to save his brothers from famine. The evil will is that of the evildoer, not of God - the Holy & Righteous Purpose that works through the evildoer’s will, is God’s Purpose.

    The Book of Revelation shows this: despite the most titanic efforts of the devil and the 666 and the False Prophet, the persecuting 666 is a fake Messiah who worships the devil, and all their power is nothing compared to the universal & everlasting dominion of the Lamb, but is controlled by the Lamb and by His Father. Rev.11.15-19 occurs just a little before the “great sign” of the Great Red Dragon satan, as though to assure the hearers of the book that the power of satan and his servants is entirely under, and “within”, the control of God and the Lamb.

    God is Lord and Master over all circumstances - all, without exception in any way, are in all respects subject to His Providence. Nothing baffles or thwarts God, for whatever comes about, can do so only because He has a purpose to work out through it. His purpose cannot be derailed, for the Wisdom of God encompasses all creatures, and all their potentialities, and sees them all in every respect. Nothing in creation, nor all creation together, can have any secrets from God, for God is the Creator of all things that have been, are, or shall be.

    That God gives a place in His Providence to great evils, in no way means that God takes pleasure in them - for God is not in any sense the Author of evil. God is Love, in the fullest, truest, most adequate and infinite sense. The Bible is insistent that God is opposed to all sin - the Bible is a vast mass of testimonies, both to God’s implacable displeasure at sin in all its forms, and to God’s Holiness and Righteousness. God’s Attributes, His Judgements, His Warnings, Rebukes, Covenants, Promises, Mighty Acts, all that He does, purposes, reveals, witness against sin and evil; and in favour of God’s Goodness, Compassion, Faithfulness, Covenantal Love, Power, Glory, Dominion, Wisdom, Strength, Zeal for His Covenant, Patience, Holiness, Righteousness - qualities never mentioned by those who speak ill of God as revealed in the Bible.

    Such a God cannot be the Author of evil, nor take pleasure in it. And Jesus Christ the Lord is the canonical “Self-portrait” of God. Jesus Christ is the definitive and totally, Divinely, adequate “Image” of God. What is God really like ? He is like Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ was on Earth, He “went around doing good”. This shows that God was doing good through Him, and, that God is always doing good. Not evil - good.

    Everything revealed about God, in Scripture and in Christ, destroys the ugly caricature of God as an omnipotent, omni-malevolent, Monster. The real clincher, is what God does on the Cross, and after. The hideous phantom that haunts so many people’s ideas about God, could not, in an infinite number of eternities (were such things possible) “become a curse for us”. The Real God, God as He is in Christ, has done exactly that. And, far more than that. God is *not* evil - God is Infinitely Good.

    1 Cor.10.13 still stands. And God ordains everything that comes to pass:

    3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined usb for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making knownc to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,e to the praise of his glory.”

    https://biblehub.com/esv/ephesians/1.htm

    The scope of the passage is all-inclusive. If God’s Love, Grace, Wisdom, did not rule and govern “all things”, the passage would be a lie. But if God has total control over “all things”, and is Good, Holy, and Righteous, then it can be truly said that nothing, not even evil, comes about “outside” His ordering, His ordination. God “chose us in” Christ, before the Big Bang, before whatever made it possible, before the creation, “when” nothing was but God Himself. Not because those chosen are good, but because God is Good.

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