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Thread: Answering An Argument Against God's Ordination of All Things

  1. #101
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Obviously.
    "For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:

    'There is no one righteous, not even one;
    there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
    All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one.' " (Rom. 3:9–12)

    It is written that all have sinned; it is not written that all do only sin.
    "... and everything that does not come from faith is sin." (Rom. 14:23)

    Since when did doing what is right make a person righteous?
    "The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous." (1 Jn. 3:7)

    The unrighteous can do what is right from time to time. The gentiles don't hate everyone, for example. Altruism is not exclusive to Christians.
    "The righteous care for the needs of their animals,
    but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel." (Pr. 12:10)

    Pharaoh would not let them go. Strike one.
    (miracle 1) Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let them go. Strike 2.
    (Miracle 2) Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let them go. Strike 3
    (Miracle 3) The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
    The Biblical record itself shows that the Lord didn’t harden pharaoh’s heart on the first two occasions.
    After the staffs became snakes: "Yet Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Ex. 7:13)
    After the Nile became blood: "Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Ex. 7:22)
    After the frogs: "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Ex. 8:15)

    So only after the third miracle do we see any clear indication that Pharaoh hardened his heart. And what is it that the Lord said?

    "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land.
    But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt." (Ex. 7:2–3)

    So "as the Lord had said" refers to "I will harden Pharaoh's heart"! So even when Pharaoh hardens his heart, "as the Lord had said" shows us that God is behind this, hardening Pharaoh's heart.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. #102
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    Clever, but not convincing.

    God ordains all things, including pre-eminent sins like the Crucifixion. But in no sense is God the Author of evil. Man is always totally answerable to God for all the use he makes of the graces God gives him - that God’s Providence rules all things and cannot be frustrated, does not in the least excuse us from whatever blame is due us for our sins.
    Can God's plan to allow people to do evil be described as ordaining something?

    If God ordained that people would crucify Jesus, how did God go about carrying out what He ordained? Did He allow them to act according to their desires and not allow anything to stop them?
    Last edited by Hornet; 04-09-2019 at 07:56 PM.

  3. Amen tabibito amen'd this post.
  4. #103
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    "For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:
    ~~
    Lee
    Right now, I have assignments due. I'll get back to this later.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  5. #104
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Right now, I have assignments due. I'll get back to this later.
    All right, best wishes with your studies...
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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