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Thread: Answering An Argument Against God's Ordination of All Things

  1. #21
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    I know some people who have used that argument.
    I know some people who make awfully silly arguments, but I don't start threads on them.
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  2. #22
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    If God ordains everything that comes to pass, hen this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.
    I believe that believers have free will, and thus God does not make every decision. Yet God remains in complete control, because only within his will is there freedom, only within his will is there free will. So I prefer the phrase "God is in complete control" to "God ordains everything," since as you point out, the latter phrase gets into difficulty.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Are there actually any twebbers that think God actually is fully equivalent to an author? Because fictional characters have no choice but be whatever the writer has them to be.
    I believe that a number of authors have argued to the contrary with regard to their fictional characters
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  4. #24
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    One of the strongest verses one could argue for the ordination of all things is Amos 3:6, which in my limited experience Arminians have not done a good job explaining. ("When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?") NIV
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  5. Amen lee_merrill amen'd this post.
  6. #25
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    One of the strongest verses one could argue for the ordination of all things is Amos 3:6, which in my limited experience Arminians have not done a good job explaining. ("When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?") NIV
    Amos 3:6 is teaching that God causes disaster. What about sin? Does God cause people to sin or does He just allow people to sin?

  7. #26
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    One of the strongest verses one could argue for the ordination of all things is Amos 3:6, which in my limited experience Arminians have not done a good job explaining. ("When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?") NIV
    Either I'm misunderstanding what the doctrine of "the ordination of all things" entails, or else I don't see how that verse is supposed to be strong support for the doctrine. To go from "God sends disasters to cities/God is the cause of disasters" to "God has ordained all things to be as they are, down to the smallest minutiae" seem to me to be quite a substantial leap.

    Or I could simply be misreading the verse, and/or misunderstanding in what way it's supposed to be used as support for the teaching.

  8. Amen Cerebrum123, alaskazimm, Littlejoe amen'd this post.
  9. #27
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    One of the strongest verses one could argue for the ordination of all things is Amos 3:6, which in my limited experience Arminians have not done a good job explaining. ("When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?") NIV
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Either I'm misunderstanding what the doctrine of "the ordination of all things" entails, or else I don't see how that verse is supposed to be strong support for the doctrine. To go from "God sends disasters to cities/God is the cause of disasters" to "God has ordained all things to be as they are, down to the smallest minutiae" seem to me to be quite a substantial leap.

    Or I could simply be misreading the verse, and/or misunderstanding in what way it's supposed to be used as support for the teaching.
    I agree with Chrawnus. Amos 3:6 is specifically in a proclamation of judgment against Israel. To make that speak for all instances and/or the "ordination of all things" is IMHO a real stretch.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  10. Amen alaskazimm, Chrawnus amen'd this post.
  11. #28
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    Amos 3:6 is teaching that God causes disaster. What about sin? Does God cause people to sin or does He just allow people to sin?
    Calvinist/Reformed theologians would say that God doesn’t actively cause sin and evil. Instead, God simply withholds the grace that humans need to do good and that once he does that, they sin “freely”.... (That is what they refer to as compatibilism). Augustine, Calvin, Edwards, Piper and Helm all say it a little differently, but this is what they all "basically" say: although God “ordains” sin and evil, God is never the actual doer of sin and evil. God ordains it but humans still freely do it and are responsible for it (and that my friends =compatibilism).

    However, consistent Calvinist/Reformed have to inevitably conclude that sin, evil and hell all exist because God wanted them to since he ordains (decree's) all things.


    Arminians avoid implicating God as the cause of sin by saying that God's foreknowledge does not equal causation. So their answer is, God allows sin but by no means ordains it or even has any cause in it.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  12. #29
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Calvinist/Reformed theologians would say that God doesn’t actively cause sin and evil. Instead, God simply withholds the grace that humans need to do good and that once he does that, they sin “freely”.... (That is what they refer to as compatibilism). Augustine, Calvin, Edwards, Piper and Helm all say it a little differently, but this is what they all "basically" say: although God “ordains” sin and evil, God is never the actual doer of sin and evil. God ordains it but humans still freely do it and are responsible for it (and that my friends =compatibilism).

    However, consistent Calvinist/Reformed have to inevitably conclude that sin, evil and hell all exist because God wanted them to since he ordains (decree's) all things.


    Arminians avoid implicating God as the cause of sin by saying that God's foreknowledge does not equal causation. So their answer is, God allows sin but by no means ordains it or even has any cause in it.
    Can ordaining all things include making a plan to permit evil?

    Is it consistent with Calvinism to say that God made a plan to permit evil?

  13. #30
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Either I'm misunderstanding what the doctrine of "the ordination of all things" entails, or else I don't see how that verse is supposed to be strong support for the doctrine. To go from "God sends disasters to cities/God is the cause of disasters" to "God has ordained all things to be as they are, down to the smallest minutiae" seem to me to be quite a substantial leap.

    Or I could simply be misreading the verse, and/or misunderstanding in what way it's supposed to be used as support for the teaching.
    To ordain means to bring to pass or make a plan that something will take place.

    Amos 3:6 teaches that God brings about natural disasters, but it does not say that God brings about all things.

    Ephesians 1:3-12 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory."

    There is a phrase in the above passage that says, "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will..." God is said to work all "things after the counsel of His will." This sounds like that God makes sure that everything happens according to His plan. Is it correct to say that God's plan includes both directly causing certain things and permitting certain things? If so, then God makes sure that everything happens according to His plan to directly cause something or to permit something.

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