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Answering An Argument Against God's Ordination of All Things

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  • #91
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes, and yes, and yes. And the jailer's household was saved when the jailer believed! Apparently their salvation was not ultimately up to them: "believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, and your household." (Acts 16:31)
    Why would the jailer be told do something he had already done? [πιστευσον - pisteuson] - "do <believe> til completion!"
    Why would Jesus be preached to him if he already believed?
    Is the command (believe on Christ) given with regard to the jailer as well as his household? Would the jailer's household be saved because the jailer believed? (Acts 2:38-39 provides the answer)
    Does believing on Christ involve doing what he says?



    But the aspect of service is in the phrase "and appointed you". "I chose you [to be my disciples] and appointed you [for service]".

    Otherwise, we have "you did not choose me [for service]"! But this is not the sense of "you did not choose me".
    In which case, "you did not choose me" would be a non sequitur. However, nothing in Jesus' statement shows that there were two different aims of choosing - Judas was chosen in the same way and with the same aim as the others. That is shown by the record in Acts 1:17 "For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry." The disciples were free to disallow being chosen, and ultimately, Judas disallowed it. More than anything else in the Bible, the record regarding Judas shows that God does not (ordinarily) choose to impose his will on a person. It can be said that where and when he chooses to exercise his prerogatives of sovereignty, what he chooses is inescapable. Where he does not, and almost always he does not, he allows free choice. Demonstration of how the process works can be found in Paul's letter to Philemon (1:8b-9a) "I have complete freedom to order you to do what is proper, 9 I prefer to make my appeal on the basis of love."


    Yet I am willing to hope that all will be saved, which would include Judas!
    Scant cause for hope there - Jesus declared that he had been lost.
    Last edited by tabibito; 04-05-2019, 06:30 PM.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment

    • #92
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      That is a superficial response. The Bible declares whom God chooses without any doubt.
      Be (or get) baptised is passive - it can't be done to an unwilling person. Dunking an unwilling person will only get the person wet.
      Yes, and "be saved" is passive, and the Lord is the one who makes us willing: "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear." (Dt 29:4)

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment

      • #93
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Why would the jailer be told do something he had already done? [πιστευσον - pisteuson] - "do <believe> til completion!"
        Why would Jesus be preached to him if he already believed?
        I think there must be some miscommunication here, the jailer was told to believe because he had not yet believed.

        Is the command (believe on Christ) given with regard to the jailer as well as his household?
        Well, the command is singular.

        Would the jailer's household be saved because the jailer believed? (Acts 2:38-39 provides the answer)
        It would appear so! "Believe and you and your household will be saved".

        Does believing on Christ involve doing what he says?
        Yes, it does.

        The disciples were free to disallow being chosen, and ultimately, Judas disallowed it. More than anything else in the Bible, the record regarding Judas shows that God does not (ordinarily) choose to impose his will on a person.
        Demonstration of how the process works can be found in Paul's letter to Philemon (1:8b-9a) "I have complete freedom to order you to do what is proper, 9 I prefer to make my appeal on the basis of love."
        Scant cause for hope there - Jesus declared that he had been lost.
        you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment

        • #94
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          I think there must be some miscommunication here, the jailer was told to believe because he had not yet believed.


          Well, the command is singular.

          It would appear so! "Believe and you and your household will be saved".
          Rather than try to explain the grammar, I'll provide an example ... "Eat and you will be filled, you and your household." would also present the command in the singular. If someone told you that this meant, "If the one person directly addressed eats, the entire household will be filled," you would be justified in doubting that someone's sanity.

          (does believing on Christ involve believing what he said) Yes, it does.

          Every relevant record shows that he was chosen for discipleship and apostleship.

          Not "will become a devil"...
          Indeed - he wasn't chosen to become a devil, but in spite of the fact that he was one. It's almost like he was chosen despite being a sinner.


          Yes, but this is written to a believer, I believe that God's children can really choose, but that those apart from Christ cannot:
          That non-believers can choose, and even do, what is right is demonstrated. That they cannot always do the good that they choose is also demonstrated. If grace is extended to the unbeliever, it is not before the decision, but in making it possible to act on the decision.

          A person enslaved is not deprived of his own desires - just the ability to act on them. Your own response, the first one quoted in this post, says as much.
          Last edited by tabibito; 04-06-2019, 08:10 PM.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment

          • #95
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Yes, the Lord chooses those he loves:
            I see - you want me to chase the red dot.

            So then, God chose Israel because of 1/ love for them, and 2/ an oath he made to their ancestor. The particular people addressed were chosen on this basis, but there is nothing in the passage that explains why he would choose anyone else. Nor does it explain why God set his love on them. In short - the passage does not address the issue of whom God chooses. By contrast, Acts 10:35 does address that issue.


            Yes, and "be saved" is passive, and the Lord is the one who makes us willing: "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear." (Dt 29:4)
            Dt 29:4 doesn't address the issue of why God had not given those attributes: Ezekiel 3: 6-7 does.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment

            • #96
              [QUOTE=tabibito;624869]Rather than try to explain the grammar, I'll provide an example ... "Eat and you will be filled, you and your household." would also present the command in the singular. If someone told you that this meant, "If the one person directly addressed eats, the entire household will be filled," you would be justified in doubting that someone's sanity.
              Right, so "eat" should be taken as a plural imperative, you are using the ambiguity of English to make your point.

              Every relevant record shows that he was chosen for discipleship and apostleship.
              That non-believers can choose, and even do, what is right is demonstrated.
              Demonstrated, how? Scripture says the one who sins is a slave to sin, and slavery implies a lack of freedom.

              If grace is extended to the unbeliever, it is not before the decision, but in making it possible to act on the decision.
              But it's "by grace [they] had believed" (Acts 18:27), not "by grace were enabled to believe."

              A person enslaved is not deprived of his own desires - just the ability to act on them. Your own response, the first one quoted in this post, says as much.
              But I'm not sure how my response says this.

              "At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures." (Titus 3:3)

              So unbelievers are enslaved by their desires, and by the devil, to do his will (2 Tim. 2:26).

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment

              • #97
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                So then, God chose Israel because of 1/ love for them, and 2/ an oath he made to their ancestor. The particular people addressed were chosen on this basis, but there is nothing in the passage that explains why he would choose anyone else.
                It certainly illustrates the freedom of God in choosing.

                Nor does it explain why God set his love on them. In short - the passage does not address the issue of whom God chooses. By contrast, Acts 10:35 does address that issue.
                "Then Peter began to speak: 'I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.' "

                So then unbelievers can do what is right without God's help? Why do we need a Savior, then?

                "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Gal. 2:21)

                Dt 29:4 doesn't address the issue of why God had not given those attributes: Ezekiel 3: 6-7 does.
                ORD, do you make us wander from your ways
                and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?" (Isa.63:17)

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment

                • #98
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  It certainly illustrates the freedom of God in choosing.
                  "Then Peter began to speak: 'I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.' "
                  So then unbelievers can do what is right without God's help?
                  Obviously.
                  Why do we need a Savior, then?
                  It is written that all have sinned; it is not written that all do only sin. Have I not addressed this point earlier in the thread?
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Why do good works not save a person?
                  Someone commits murder. Thereafter, that person spent the past 20 years doing only good works. Then he is identified as the perpetrator of that murder 20 years earlier, he is tried and convicted. Do his good works save him? Not so, but a pardon (grace) will. BUT - just how much effect will that pardon have if the person then goes on to commit murder again - can he say "but I have been pardoned"?
                  "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Gal. 2:21)
                  Since when did doing what is right make a person righteous?
                  The unrighteous can do what is right from time to time. The gentiles don't hate everyone, for example. Altruism is not exclusive to Christians.
                  But being hardened is from the Lord:
                  More chasing of the red dot.
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Being hardened can be from the Lord - usually when people have rejected opportunity often enough to become an annoyance. You present arguments, that show the Lord does harden a person, which also show that they weren't hardened from the outset. Comment by Chrawnus earlier in this thread is relevant.
                  Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                  To go from "God sends disasters to cities/God is the cause of disasters" to "God has ordained all things to be as they are, down to the smallest minutiae" seem to me to be quite a substantial leap.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment

                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                    There is an argument I heard that is against the view that God ordains everything that comes to pass. How would you respond to it?

                    If God ordains everything that comes to pass, then God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances.
                    If God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances, then sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances.
                    If sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances, then this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.

                    Conclusion: If God ordains everything that comes to pass, hen this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.

                    Comment

                    • #100
                      I'm not convinced that this example is accurate. Outcomes from the Crucifixion might be ordained without the crucifixion itself being ordained: a matter of all things being made to work together for the good; which is to say, I am not convinced that God would ordain evil.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment

                      • #101
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Obviously.
                        It is written that all have sinned; it is not written that all do only sin.
                        "... and everything that does not come from faith is sin." (Rom. 14:23)

                        Since when did doing what is right make a person righteous?
                        "The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous." (1 Jn. 3:7)

                        The unrighteous can do what is right from time to time. The gentiles don't hate everyone, for example. Altruism is not exclusive to Christians.
                        "The righteous care for the needs of their animals,
                        but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel." (Pr. 12:10)

                        ORDORD had said." (Ex. 7:22)
                        After the frogs: "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Ex. 8:15)

                        So only after the third miracle do we see any clear indication that Pharaoh hardened his heart. And what is it that the Lord said?

                        "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land.
                        But
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment

                        • #102
                          Can God's plan to allow people to do evil be described as ordaining something?

                          If God ordained that people would crucify Jesus, how did God go about carrying out what He ordained? Did He allow them to act according to their desires and not allow anything to stop them?
                          Last edited by Hornet; 04-09-2019, 09:56 PM.

                          Comment

                          • #103
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            "For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:
                            ~~
                            Lee
                            Right now, I have assignments due. I'll get back to this later.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment

                            • #104
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              Right now, I have assignments due. I'll get back to this later.
                              All right, best wishes with your studies...
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment

                              • #105
                                Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                                There is an argument I heard that is against the view that God ordains everything that comes to pass. How would you respond to it?

                                If God ordains everything that comes to pass, then God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances.
                                If God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances, then sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances.
                                If sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances, then this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.

                                Conclusion: If God ordains everything that comes to pass, hen this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.
                                in no way means that God takes pleasure in them3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined usb for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making knownc to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,ehttps://biblehub.com/esv/ephesians/1.htm

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