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Answering An Argument Against God's Ordination of All Things

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
    Can ordaining all things include making a plan to permit evil?

    Is it consistent with Calvinism to say that God made a plan to permit evil?
    Yes and yes. It's a natural conclusion of their theology.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

    Comment


    • #32
      And that's why middle knowledge makes a nice third option! God knows everything that might happen as a result of our free choices in any hypothetical universe and creates the universe with the best outcome.
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

      Comment


      • #33
        To my eye, Molinism seems way too speculative without any real biblical evidence actually suggesting it is an accurate model.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Hornet View Post
          To ordain means to bring to pass or make a plan that something will take place.
          So far so good.

          Amos 3:6 teaches that God brings about natural disasters, but it does not say that God brings about all things.
          You added to the text. The word "natural" isn't there.

          Ephesians 1:3-12 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory."

          There is a phrase in the above passage that says, "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will..." God is said to work all "things after the counsel of His will." This sounds like that God makes sure that everything happens according to His plan. Is it correct to say that God's plan includes both directly causing certain things and permitting certain things? If so, then God makes sure that everything happens according to His plan to directly cause something or to permit something.
          It wasn't until St. Augustine's writings in the 4th century that anyone in the early church interpreted the New Testament to teach that God individually predestines certain people go to heaven, and leaves all others (predestines them) to go to hell. Anyone who knows church history knows that the Reformation and Calvinist doctrine has a direct line to Augustine. But I believe that Paul was using the common Jewish practice of his time and was writing about corporate election in the passage above. Jews thought of themselves as God's chosen people because they were Jewish. The Nation of Israel was elected for service not the individual. Not every Jew born in Israel was part of God's chosen people...only those that kept coventant with God were considered "True Israelites." Paul doesn’t say that God chose us to be in Christ. He rather says God chose us in Christ to be holy and blameless. What God chose from the foundation of the world was that whoever is in Christ will be holy and blameless.
          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            To my eye, Molinism seems way too speculative without any real biblical evidence actually suggesting it is an accurate model.
            All of them are when you don't have the context of honor and shame. And the Bible is a high context document. Which is why Paul's letters feel like hearing one side of a phone conversation. At least we will someday get the full picture. And one day, we can (very respectfully and humbly!) ask God to correct our theology so we can honor Him better!
            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Hornet View Post
              Amos 3:6 is teaching that God causes disaster. What about sin? Does God cause people to sin or does He just allow people to sin?
              "Why, LORD, do you make us wander from your ways
              and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?" (Isa. 63:17)

              "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase..." (Rom. 5:20)

              So we see that God does bring about sin, though he uses secondary causes, and thus is not the direct source of the sin.

              Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” (Job 2:3)

              And Job's ruin involved sinful actions against him, instigated by the devil, but the Lord ultimately caused what happened.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              Last edited by lee_merrill; 03-22-2019, 03:48 PM.
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                To my eye, Molinism seems way too speculative without any real biblical evidence actually suggesting it is an accurate model.
                I'm not sure about Molinism as a whole, but at least the part about middle knowledge makes perfect sense to me. I don't even know how anyone could seriously deny that God has middle knowledge.

                Comment


                • #38
                  He knows what would have happened if the Nazis had won WWII! He knows what would have happened if you went left instead of right on a street.
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                    I'm not sure about Molinism as a whole, but at least the part about middle knowledge makes perfect sense to me. I don't even know how anyone could seriously deny that God has middle knowledge.
                    Yes, IIRC there are several passages that explicitly state the hypothetical result of counterfactuals.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Words translated as "ordain" by the translators of the KJV

                      (not in original text) - (interpolation) - Rom 7:10 - translated as (n/a)
                      cheirotoneo - appoint by vote - Acts 14:23 - choose, ordain
                      diatasso - command - 1 Cor 7:17; 9:14. Gal 3:19 - appoint, command, give, (set in) order, ordain
                      horizo - delimit, appoint, specify - Acts 10:42; 17:31 - declare, determine, limit, ordain
                      kataskeuazo - construct, build, prepare (for purpose of) - Heb 9:6 - build, make, ordain, prepare
                      kathistemi - designate, assign - Titus 1:5. Heb 5:1; 8:3 - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set
                      proetoimazo - prepare < > in advance - Eph 2:10 - ordain before, prepare afore
                      proginosko - know previously* - 1 Pet 1:20 - fore-ordain, foreknow, know (before)
                      prographo - write/announce in advance - Jude 1:4 - before ordain, evidently set forth, write (afore, aforetime)
                      proorizo - predetermine, decide beforehand - 1 Cor 2:7 - determine before, ordain, predestinate
                      tasso - assign - Acts 13:48. Rom 13:1 ... addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set

                      tithemi - put < > in place - John 15:16. 1 Tim 2:7 - advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down

                      poieo - make/do - Mark 3:14 - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do(-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield

                      krino - render a judicial decision - Acts 16:4 - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think

                      ginomai - become - Acts 1:22 - arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought

                      * People knowing Paul (proginosko (present participle plural) = proeginoskontes) from the time before he came to Christ.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        Yes, IIRC there are several passages that explicitly state the hypothetical result of counterfactuals.
                        I mean, even if there weren't a single biblical passage about "what would happen if things were a different way" the mere thought that God wouldn't know how how things would turn out of things were different than what they are is completely ludicrous to me.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                          I mean, even if there weren't a single biblical passage about "what would happen if things were a different way" the mere thought that God wouldn't know how how things would turn out of things were different than what they are is completely ludicrous to me.
                          Yep. I suspect the main reason for Molinism's current resurgence can be squarely tied to its embrace by William Lane Craig. As an actual theory, I suppose it's possible, but there's no real way to prove or disprove it.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            Yep. I suspect the main reason for Molinism's current resurgence can be squarely tied to its embrace by William Lane Craig. As an actual theory, I suppose it's possible, but there's no real way to prove or disprove it.
                            Maybe a search of the literature for reference to whether God knows all that is, all that will be, and all that can be will provide a clue?
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              Maybe a search of the literature for reference to whether God knows all that is,
                              yep, it says that
                              all that will be, and all that can be will provide a clue?
                              Nope, not finding those...
                              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                                yep, it says that
                                Nope, not finding those...
                                "can be" and "will be" are not as explicit as "is", but one of them has to be there: Prophecy can't be explained without the knowledge of either "can be" or "will be".
                                The question then continues further - in part answered by the preponderance of prophecies that are (explicitly or implicitly) conditional, with the scant few that are not conditional being fairly short range.
                                Far future tends to be conditional, near future sometimes can be absolute.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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