Originally posted by tabibito
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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Answering An Argument Against God's Ordination of All Things
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"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Hadn't thought of that possibility - I will do certainly doesn't require a knowledge of "can be" or "will be" ... but the concept would mean that (for example) God directly acted to get Jesus crucified.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostSo far so good.
You added to the text. The word "natural" isn't there.
It wasn't until St. Augustine's writings in the 4th century that anyone in the early church interpreted the New Testament to teach that God individually predestines certain people go to heaven, and leaves all others (predestines them) to go to hell. Anyone who knows church history knows that the Reformation and Calvinist doctrine has a direct line to Augustine. But I believe that Paul was using the common Jewish practice of his time and was writing about corporate election in the passage above. Jews thought of themselves as God's chosen peoplechose us to be in Christ. He rather says God chose us in Christ to be holy and blameless. What God chose from the foundation of the world was that whoever is in Christ will be holy and blameless.
Romans 8:28-30 says, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." It sounds like God foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified certain individuals. The idea of God's foreknowledge is that He knows people, not just facts about them. It is the idea that God planned to set His love upon them. Moreover, everyone whom He calls is justified. Doesn't this imply that God ensures that His people will come to Christ?
John 6:37 says, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." All those whom the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son.Last edited by Hornet; 03-25-2019, 09:53 PM.
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostDoesn't Romans 8:29-30 and John 6:37 imply that God chooses certain individuals for salvation?
Romans 8:28-30 says, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew,
He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
and these whom He predestined, He also called;
and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." It sounds like God foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified certain individuals. The idea of God's foreknowledge is that He knows people, not just facts about them. It is the idea that God planned to set His love upon them. Moreover, everyone whom He calls is justified. Doesn't this imply that God ensures that His people will come to Christ?
John 6:37 says, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." All those whom the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son.Last edited by tabibito; 03-25-2019, 11:11 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostDoesn't Romans 8:29-30 and John 6:37 imply that God chooses certain individuals for salvation?
Now, even though God (fore)-loved the nation of Israel, there were still individual Jews who clearly rejected God's love for them. (Read the O.T. Prophets). So, the "foreknowing" is toward a class of people, not individuals.
What does all that mean? Well, if we go back to Romans 8 and look we see that first of all, Paul is reassuring the Roman Christians (many of them were converted Jews) that 1) They were indeed grafted into the "family of God" and were going to be saved. 2) God is faithful to save them if they endure their present suffering/persecution.
Rom 8:23 - 25:
3) The "saints" Paul refers to in verse 27, isn't N.T. Saints, but O.T. Saints that he "foreknew". He's assuring them that just as God was faithful in the O.T. to preserve and protect the David's, Abrahams, and Isaiah's, that he would surely do that for them.
Romans 8:28-30 says, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
It sounds like God foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified certain individuals. The idea of God's foreknowledge is that He knows people, not just facts about them.It is the idea that God planned to set His love upon them. Moreover, everyone whom He calls is justified. Doesn't this imply that God ensures that His people will come to Christ?
John 6:37 says, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." All those whom the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son.2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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"For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world..." (1 Peter 1:20) does not imply knowing Jesus' known-beforehand choices.
Now - if Jesus had said, will never leave or be cast out ... that would make an interesting point.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post... but he doesn't mean in that verse to say that God knew about these individual people ahead of time but that God loved these people ahead of time.
The "saints" Paul refers to in verse 27, isn't N.T. Saints, but O.T. Saints that he "foreknew". He's assuring them that just as God was faithful in the O.T. to preserve and protect the David's, Abrahams, and Isaiah's, that he would surely do that for them.
This implies there are others God did not foreknow...how can that be possible if he's talking about individuals?
Scripture is clear that God wants every person to put their trust in his Son...
Saying that God has decided from before creation which particular individuals will and will not be saved while ignoring the other point that God wants all people to be saved ends up with God appearing not just arbitrary, but even duplicitous in saying he loves everyone and seemingly offers salvation to all, while enabling only a few of those to actually come to Christ when he could have just as easily enabled everyone to come to salvation.
"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!" (Rom. 11:32-33)
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostYet how can God love a group of people without loving individuals?
Moreover, it's a common mistake that we as western Christians make in reading individualism into scripture where none exist. Israelites were for the most part, a nation of priests, even though many through out the O.T. rejected God, yet Israel was still God's chosen people. So, I don't think Paul's thinking all the sudden changed from group/corporate election to individual election. Chapter 11 seems to make that abundantly clear.
Can you find this in a commentary? Surely "the saints" refers to God's people on earth, here and now.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom 8:29-30 NKJV)Agreed.
Well, I believe we're given reason to hope that God will choose everyone!
"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!" (Rom. 11:32-33)
Blessings,
Lee"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post"For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world..." (1 Peter 1:20) does not imply knowing Jesus' known-beforehand choices.
But Jesus said "he who comes to me", not "he who comes to me and never leaves"...
Blessings,
Lee
παραμενω (parameno - stays near) James 1:25 (παραμεινας - stays near) translated as persevere
μενω (meno - remain/stay) John 15:4,6,7 (μεινη it remains, μεινητε you (pl) remain) translated as abide [[John 15:6 If a person remains not in me, he is cast forth]] μενων (menon - remaining) 2 John 1:9 translated as abideth
He who comes to me and remains is well attested - even in this thoroughly incomplete list.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostThere is an argument I heard that is against the view that God ordains everything that comes to pass. How would you respond to it?
If God ordains everything that comes to pass, then God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances.
If God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances, then sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances.
If sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances, then this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.
Conclusion: If God ordains everything that comes to pass, hen[ce] this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.
For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostI don't understand the question, perhaps you can clarify? God does what he does, explaining HOW God does something is a tough task is it not?
So, I don't think Paul's thinking all the sudden changed from group/corporate election to individual election. Chapter 11 seems to make that abundantly clear.
"... to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints." (Rom. 1:7)
"... and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." (Rom 8:27)
Surely these verses mean Paul is addressing his readers as the saints.
(and the Greek verbs here are different than in vs. 16) Here all the verbs in the Greek are aorist indicative, (i.e. already completed) in 16 they are aorist passive subjective (will happen). Why does Paul switch the tenses in the Greek? Because he's talking about the past here, not the present
I think that if Paul had intended to convey any notion that he was speaking to the Roman Christians as the "Saints" in this verse, he would have used the same tense he used previously in verse 16, (that being the aorist passive subjective). He didn't do that because he was speaking here of the Old Testament saints who had already died but God had provided hope for.
Are you espousing a form of Universalism here?!?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe Logos was known before the foundation of the cosmos ... Where is the problem?
He who comes to me and remains is well attested - even in this thoroughly incomplete list."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostAs a non-Calvinist, I would deny that God foreordains all things. I would say that God foreordains some things and allows others. All falls within or under the scope of divine governance. However, I would deny that, in order to be considered truly sovereign, God must have an exhaustive, eternal decree that disallows any form of non-deterministic, contra-causal creaturely freedom.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostNo, I'm asking how God can logically love a group, how you logically could love your family, without loving the individuals within that group.
So Paul's commands to righteous behavior are not applicable to individuals? Only to a group?
"... to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints." (Rom. 1:7)
"... and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." (Rom 8:27)
Surely these verses mean Paul is addressing his readers as the saints.
I'm not following you here, Rom. 8:16 is present active indicative.
However, my point still stands as it's a different tense, 16 is (as you said) present active indicative (happening now) and in 29 it's aorist indicative (already happened)
Well, again, I don't think you'll find this in a commentary. If what you are saying is correct Rom. 8:31 should read "if God was for them, who can be against us?"
Nope, once Paul has firmly established in their minds that things are going to work out for them as they did for the O.T. saints, he can now lump them all together.
Yes, "soft universalism", being convinced that we are given reason to hope that all will be saved. As opposed to hard universalism, the claim that all will certainly be saved.
Blessings,
Lee"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostAgain, why is it impossible to love a group of people? I have a very close knit extended family on my fathers side. I love this family...I love how we support one another, how we respond to one another.
Christians, as a group, are called to righteous behavior (though righteous behavior isn't even really the thrust of Romans 8 so...) That doesn't negate the individual mandate.
Again, Paul is telling the current Saints in Rome that they can KNOW ...God works all things together for good for those who love the Lord..." by looking to the Old Testament Saints. They haven't experienced it yet, so how could they know other than to look at what God has done in the past?
And how could Paul's readers know that all things work together for good by examining past history? Knowing this involves some measure of faith, that God will work out everything that happens to his saints, for good.
16 is (as you said) present active indicative (happening now) and in 29 it's aorist indicative (already happened)
I'm not opposed to that concept that at least all are given a chance, it does say "...that evey knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord..."
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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