Mass shootings at New Zealand mosques...

[Mountain Man]

Like I wrote: "However, it is naive to think there are no possible tragic consequences when humans are treated or talked about in inhuman ways." He is causing a hardening of hearts and a lack of compassion. That is what I blame him for.

Shunya said it: "The fact is, because of Trump's many racist statements, acts, and policies many of the extremists consider Trump their hero on the international stage. Trump needs to realize that words can kill more than guns."

And you still insist you're not trying to tie Trump to this shooting.

[Charles]

And you still insist you're not trying to tie Trump to this shooting.

Yes. I see a difference that you are either incapable of or try to avoid in order to not have to reflect on it. It seems to me you go for a straw man and assume I tie him directly to it while what I actually point out is that his words, his behaviour is dangerous and causes a hardening of hearts. It seems you can only work in a very simple reality of black and white.

[shunyadragon]

And you still insist you're not trying to tie Trump to this shooting.

Yes, inspired by Trump.

[shunyadragon]

So, then lets ban words!

The use of violent words as weapons is the responsibility of the one who uses them.

[rogue06]

While one needs to twist things into a pretzel in order to blame Trump the left always remains as quiet as a church mouse about all the violence that can be directly linked to liberals and their virulent rhetoric.

Let's start with James Hodgkinson who actually very specifically targeted Republicans^[1] before opening fire on them as they practiced for the annual Congressional Baseball Game for Charity. This left wing activist, MSNBC News junkie (notorious for the vitriol directed at Republicans and conservatives) and Bernie Sanders campaign worker who frequently expressed his hatred toward Republicans online, critically wounded House Majority Whip Steve Scalise (R-Louisiana)^[2] as well as wounding four others.

Then there is Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky) who was attacked from behind in his backyard resulting in five rib fractures including 3 displaced fractures as well as lung contusions as he was mowing his lawn by Rene Boucher, a neighbor and supporter of the far-left Occupy movement and who's Facebook account is full of anti-Trump rants.

The MSM worked overtime pushing the attackers story that this was all about a property dispute but neighbors of both men (Boucher did not even live next door to Paul) and the neighborhood homeowners association quickly debunked that.

Then there is Rep. David Kustoff (Tennessee) who was nearly run off the road by a stalker, Wendi Wright, who was angry about his vote to repeal and replace Obamacare. She then confronted him when he pulled over screaming, striking the windows on Kustoff's car and even reaching inside the vehicle before finally leaving. She was later arrested after boasting of the confrontation on Facebook and charged with felony reckless endangerment.

Then there is Rudy Peters, who while running against Rep. Eric Swalwell (D-California) last year, who was assaulted by a knife-wielding attacker near a vendor's booth at the Castro Valley Fall Festival after the attacker began screaming profanity-laced remarks about the Republican party and Trump and repeatedly shouting "I'll kill you" as he attacked. Fortunately Ford was able to fend of the attacker using one of his election signs. The attacker, Farzad Fazeli, ran off but was later arrested and charged with felony assault, making criminal threats and brandishing a weapon.

Then there is Kristin Davison the campaign manager for Nevada GOP gubernatorial candidate Adam Laxalt who was roughed up by an operative for American Bridge 21st Century, funded by liberal billionaire George Soros, leaving her bruised.

Then, up in Minnesota, two Republicans were physically assaulted by assailants who were angry about their politics. State Rep. Sarah Anderson was punched when she confronted a man kicking down several of her yard signs and Minnesota House District 15b candidate Shane Mekeland was attacked during a campaign event after the assailant accused Republicans of abandoning the middle class. That attack left him with a concussion.

Then in Massachusetts there was Shiva Ayyadurai who was running for Senate against Elizabeth Warren and got punched by one of her supporters.

The MSM has either downplayed or ignored most of these and other actual attacks (the baseball shooting being the notable exception) while constantly bemoaning how Trump's rancorous rhetoric may some day lead to violence. The fact is that, as can be seen above, the venomous rhetoric spewed from the left in a near constant stream has already led to violence. "Comedians" and other "entertainers" have a long and sordid history of making "jokes" or producing songs and the like advocating violence against Republican leaders. And with few exceptions the left rallies in their defense.

And you also have Democrat politicians like Mad Max[ine] Waters (D-Cal) demanding that people "create a crowd and you push back" against Republicans wherever and whenever you see them, calling for in-your-face confrontations as well as encouraging people to mob and harass Trump Administration officials. Likewise presidential hopeful Sen. Cory "I am Spartacus" Booker (D-NJ) urged liberal advocates to "get up in the face of some congresspeople."

And let's not forget Hillary Clinton's declaration that Democrats shouldn't be civil to Republicans unless they win back control of Washington or former Obama Attorney General Eric Holder's mocking of former first lady Michelle Obama's call for civility when he told supporters, "Michelle always says, ‘When they go low, we go high.’ No. No. When they go low, we kick them," he said, adding, "That’s what this Democratic Party’s about."

And not too long ago Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.), who was Hillary's running mate, was on MSNBC's Morning Joe telling co-host Mika Brzezinski that Democrats needed to "fight in the streets" in order to combat the Trump Administration.

Apparently that is exactly what Kaine's youngest son "Woody" does as a member of Antifa and who was arrested in Minnesota for taking part in an attack on a pro-Trump rally at the state capitol resulting in the injury of a female Trump supporter and later charged with three misdemeanors. Other charges were dismissed and he made a plea deal resulting in his being sentenced to a year of probation and ordered to pay $236 fine (never hurts to have a powerful politically connected daddy).

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35700[/ATTACH]

Of course aggressive rhetoric of this sort is nothing new and Trump is hardly the first president to employ some. The last occupant of the White House, Barrack Obama was known to employ more than his share of it, saying things like:

• "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."
• "argue with your neighbors. Get in their face."
• "Punch back twice as hard."

I can not help but be reminded of Jesus' words in Matthew 7:4-5 whenever those on the left or Never Trumpers start trying to play Six Degrees of Separation in their desperate attempts to link Trump with any and every act of violence while their own hands are red with blood.

Scripture Verse: Matt. 7:4-5 ESV

Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

© Copyright Original Source

1. Before the shooting he asked if those out on the field were Republicans or Democrats

2. He was in critical condition for several days as a result of the shooting and was hospitalized for 6 weeks

And as we can see here the left continues to neglect and ignore how their own inciteful rhetoric can be undeniably linked to violence while frantically looking for any link no matter how tenuous to Trump's words having the same effect that their's have had.

[Mountain Man]

...what I actually point out is that his words, his behaviour is dangerous and causes a hardening of hearts.

And what does that have to do with a shooting in New Zealand? You may as well blame all the people who recently condemned Ilhan Omar for her anti-Semitic rhetoric.

[Charles]

And what does that have to do with a shooting in New Zealand? You may as well blame all the people who recently condemned Ilhan Omar for her anti-Semitic rhetoric.

Well, I would suppose most people would need a hardening of their hearts in order to commit those acts. I have repeatedly said that I do not see any direct link to Trump in this case (though you have repeatedly tried to create a straw man insisting I somehow do so). What I have pointed out is that his harsh words, his inhuman treatment of other human beings causes a hardening of hearts that could lead to very serious consequences.

I agree with some of the points in the article We have to stop this hate and start seeing Muslims as human

The most powerful man on the planet, President Donald Trump, has sought to ban them from entering the United States. British prime minister hopeful and former Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson made "jokes" insulting Muslim women, saying they looked like letter boxes. After those comments, Tell Mama, an organization that records Muslim hate incidents, reported that attacks on Muslim women went up.

The trope that all Muslims are somehow predisposed to violence or terrorism is dangerous and wrong.

If we can take one lesson from the horror of Christchurch, we have to stop this hate and see Muslims as human beings, just like anyone else.

[tabibito]

And what does that have to do with a shooting in New Zealand? You may as well blame all the people who recently condemned Ilhan Omar for her anti-Semitic rhetoric.

Particularly when someone who had condemned that rhetoric gets button-holed, bullied, and vilified when she attends a at a Friday night vigil for the massacre victims. The comment deemed by the bully to have led to the NZ atrocity was “We should expect all elected officials, regardless of party, and all public figures to not traffic in anti-Semitism.”

Source: New York Post

“This right here is the result of a massacre stoked by people like you and the words that you put out into the world,” senior student Leen Dweik told Clinton Friday in a video posted to social media.

© Copyright Original Source

Interesting ... Based on that report, a person unaware of the background could be forgiven for failing to realise that this was a video of a rather violent (though not so much physically) confrontation.

Then there was an incident earlier in the year, where a person who quite peacefully and lawfully had a table with pro-Trump material on display. Claiming that the person was inciting violence, an individual overturned the table and assaulted the person. Some might say that the individual had proven his point.

If anything promotes violence and division, it is the way the MSM "reports" (if such a term be permitted in this matter) and skews incidents to further its own political and financial interests.

The "Koi Feeding Scandal" is a minor matter, but it is a stand-out example of the lengths that the MSM will go to in its efforts to undermine Trump.
But it is Trump who criticises the antagonists in violence regardless of political stamp or excuse.
Obama - not so much. If any American president in recent times demonstrated a pattern of excusing or condemning violence on the basis of offenders' political stamp, it was Obama, not Trump. If any American president in recent times demonstrated the will to promote racism and (internal) division, it was Obama, not Trump.
IMO - Trump's attitudes and behaviours often stink, but Obama's stank no less, and were somewhat more dangerous.

[Tassman]

And you still insist you're not trying to tie Trump to this shooting.

Words matter. Especially if the person using them is a president of the USA. Trump has dramatically elevated the level of rhetorical tension in ways that do not discourage people from acting out their xenophobic views. According to the FBI there has been a dramatic spike in 'hate crimes' since Trump took power. He was singled out in the Manifesto "as a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose”. In short, Trump has set the tone.

[tabibito]

Words matter. Especially if the person using them is a president of the USA. Trump has dramatically elevated the level of rhetorical tension in ways that do not discourage people from acting out their xenophobic views. According to the FBI there has been a dramatic spike in 'hate crimes' since Trump took power. He was singled out in the Manifesto "as a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose”. In short, Trump has set the tone.

A strange thing, that. The violence is more often committed by anti-Trumpers than by any other group. On the face of it, more by anti-Trumpers than by ALL other groups combined.

[Tassman]

Look at the population density difference, Tassy. The fact that there has been a mass shooting despite the draconian gun control in your part of the world shows that gun control doesn't stop those determined to murder people. They will find a way..

The Australian shooter, who perpetrated the NZ massacre, certainly found a way. He went to NZ where the gun laws are less draconian than in Australia and obtained his weapons legally there. The NZ Prime Minister now has plans to tighten N.Z's gun laws as well.

[Terraceth]

The truth is, NZ is what the liberals would like to turn the USA into in regards to gun control and eliminating the 2nd Amendment, and this shows that doing so would solve NOTHING. That is the true narrative here. You can't stop someone who is bent on murdering people by legislating away guns.

The problem with this claim is that with this logic, why bother doing anything if it won't completely stop an issue? "X won't completely stop Y, so don't bother with X" is terrible logic. People still commit crimes while a police force is around, so why bother with a police force at all? So pointing to a single mass shooting and claiming "this shows that gun control solves NOTHING" is inherently fallacious.

Now, if mass shootings were as common or as frequent in New Zealand as they are in the United States, you would have a point. But from my understanding, they're far more common in the United States (even taking into account the population difference), so that argument doesn't work.

[NorrinRadd]

... Now, if mass shootings were as common or as frequent in New Zealand as they are in the United States, you would have a point. But from my understanding, they're far more common in the United States (even taking into account the population difference), so that argument doesn't work.

It's going to be really hard to do the analysis. You'd have to agree on a definition of "mass shooting," and probably consider both "population" and "population density." Might even need to break it down regionally, rather than consider U.S. as a whole; do the shootings tend to concentrate in certain areas? What do those areas have in common? Political party in charge? Race? Population density? Economics? Religious affiliation? Gun laws?

[Tassman]

It's going to be really hard to do the analysis. You'd have to agree on a definition of "mass shooting," and probably consider both "population" and "population density." Might even need to break it down regionally, rather than consider U.S. as a whole; do the shootings tend to concentrate in certain areas? What do those areas have in common? Political party in charge? Race? Population density? Economics? Religious affiliation? Gun laws?

"No other developed nation comes close to the rate of US gun violence".

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...s-gun-violence

Since 20 May 1992 NZ has not had a multiple murder of more than 7 persons at a time and there have been just 4 such episodes from then until the recent massacre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...in_New_Zealand

OTOH data from the ‘US Gun Violence Archive’ reveals there is a mass shooting – defined as four or more people shot in one incident, not including the shooter – nine out of every 10 days on average.

[Sparko]

The problem with this claim is that with this logic, why bother doing anything if it won't completely stop an issue? "X won't completely stop Y, so don't bother with X" is terrible logic. People still commit crimes while a police force is around, so why bother with a police force at all? So pointing to a single mass shooting and claiming "this shows that gun control solves NOTHING" is inherently fallacious.

Now, if mass shootings were as common or as frequent in New Zealand as they are in the United States, you would have a point. But from my understanding, they're far more common in the United States (even taking into account the population difference), so that argument doesn't work.

except when it comes to guns, it turns out that if more noncriminals have them, then the criminals are less likely to try to use them knowing they would end up being shot if they tried. It takes the police 20 to 30 minutes to show up at these sorts of mass killings. If the people there had guns, the killer would have been stopped before he killed 49 people. The laws to ban guns only take them away from people who would NOT use them criminally.