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Mass shootings at New Zealand mosques...

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    And guns are legally used in self-defense, even at the low estimates around 55,000 times a year. Way more than they are used in crimes.
    For most handguns and rifles, all you need is licensing and screening. No felonies. No known history of potentially dangerous psychiatric illness. Mandatory training. But even more for large capacity, semi-automatic guns like an AR15.

    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 03-21-2019, 11:18 AM.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      The way these liberals overreact and use every such incident as an excuse to take away guns from law abiding citizens makes me wonder if they don't set these incidents in motion themselves.
      Unacceptable.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        It's still to many. I maintain that any weapon that gives an average individual with minimal training the power to kill in a few 10s of seconds dozens of people needs to be tightly controlled. That is too powerful a weapon to be available without proper training and screening.

        Jim
        Well it's a good thing you are not in charge of the constitution then Jim. The 2nd amendment was written for the military use of firearms by US Citizens. The supreme court even upheld that use. I think a weapon that is easy to use and lets you kill more than one person is exactly what you would need for self-defense or god-forbid if we ever did need to use it in a military style action like the framer's envisioned.

        As far as training goes, I am all for people getting trained. Maybe the government should supply free militia training for citizens. And I am against felons or people with certain mental problems obtaining guns too.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          For most handguns and rifles, all you need is licensing and screening. No felonies. No known history of potentially dangerous psychiatric illness. Mandatory training. But even more for large capacity, semi-automatic guns like an AR15.

          Jim
          What does that non-sequitur have to do with guns being used many more times a year in self-defense than in mass shootings?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Roy View Post
            Unacceptable.
            It sure would be.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              And as we've seen in countries like England, Australia, and New Zealand, homicide, violent crime, and suicide rates are unaffected by gun bans, and in some cases actually become worse. For that matter, some of the most violent cities in the United States have the strictest gun laws in the country, but that's not about to stop some gang banger from gunning down his rivals in a drive-by.
              Obviously folks aren't as dead when a firearm isn't used.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                What does that non-sequitur have to do with guns being used many more times a year in self-defense than in mass shootings?
                You don't have to ban guns to put reasonable controls on their ownership. The choice is no 'no guns at all' vs 'anyone that can still breath can own a gun'

                Jim
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  You don't have to ban guns to put reasonable controls on their ownership. The choice is no 'no guns at all' vs 'anyone that can still breath can own a gun'

                  Jim
                  I was discussing Tassy's claim of how many mass shootings there were in a year (~300) to which you said "to many [sic]" and to which I pointed out that there were many more stabbings in California in a year, automobile accidents, etc. And that many more legal gun owners used guns in self-defense than ever were used in mass shootings. Then you popped in with a comment about "For most handguns and rifles, all you need is licensing and screening."

                  Kinda skipped a track or two.

                  But we already do have licensing and screening as you pointed out. And the vast majority of gun owners never use them to kill anyone or to commit crimes. Even the vast majority of AR15 owners. There are millions of AR15 owners and what, maybe a dozen or so used in mass shootings? Banning AR15's for the misuse by a few criminals would be like banning cars because of drunk drivers.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    You don't have to ban guns to put reasonable controls on their ownership. The choice is no 'no guns at all' vs 'anyone that can still breath can own a gun'
                    Do you think that all of our rights should be subjected to "reasonable controls", or just some of them? Oh, be careful where you step, because that slope is treacherously slippery.

                    And before you say it, yes, you do have a protected right to yell "Fire!" without cause in a crowded theater. That act is legal in and of itself. What is not legal is the ensuing panic caused by your outburst and for which you can and should be held accountable. I personally think there are too many restrictions placed on gun ownership as it is.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      And guns are legally used in self-defense, even at the low estimates around 55,000 times a year. Way more than they are used in crimes.
                      And that only counts weapons that were actually discharged in self-defense and not cases where the mere threat of using a gun -- whether a verbal warning, or the gun was actually drawn -- was enough to cause an attacker to change his mind.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        And that only counts weapons that were actually discharged in self-defense and not cases where the mere threat of using a gun -- whether a verbal warning, or the gun was actually drawn -- was enough to cause an attacker to change his mind.
                        Simply opening a jacket to reveal a holstered handgun, chambering a round into a pump 12 gauge shotgun or pointing a handgun at someone armed with a knife or the like can and has deterred the violent intent of many a criminal assailant.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Well it's a good thing you are not in charge of the constitution then Jim. The 2nd amendment was written for the military use of firearms by US Citizens. The supreme court even upheld that use. I think a weapon that is easy to use and lets you kill more than one person is exactly what you would need for self-defense or god-forbid if we ever did need to use it in a military style action like the framer's envisioned.
                          The second amendment was written in a time when it took over a minute to reload a single shot rifle! How many people do you suppose a shooter wandering into a school could kill with the most advanced rifle of the time before he was subdued? In the end the cost of that potential (and marginal) protection from invasion in this day and age is far too high.

                          As far as training goes, I am all for people getting trained. Maybe the government should supply free militia training for citizens. And I am against felons or people with certain mental problems obtaining guns too.
                          Just have a mandatory service requirement in the actual armed services if you goal is a backdoor public militia. Our society and our technology is not what it was when the 2nd amendment was written. There are a large number of reasons it would have been more reasonable then than it is now. Not the least of which is general psychological make up of the population itself. Too little hard work, too much play, too much idle time, too little respect for time honored moral principles have made us far less of a stable society.

                          Out of curiosity, how do you plan to reduce the number of felons or mentally unstable people with access to guns without changing and making more restrictive the current set of gun laws?


                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            I was discussing Tassy's claim of how many mass shootings there were in a year (~300) to which you said "to many [sic]" and to which I pointed out that there were many more stabbings in California in a year, automobile accidents, etc. And that many more legal gun owners used guns in self-defense than ever were used in mass shootings. Then you popped in with a comment about "For most handguns and rifles, all you need is licensing and screening."

                            Kinda skipped a track or two.
                            No, you just missed the connection, which was the rather obvious implication in your arguent that increased screening and training of gun owners would somehow reduce our capability to have guns for self-defense. My comment was simply, 'It ain't necessarily so!' There is no reason to assume that keeping guns out of the hands of felons or the mentally unstable would reduce the capacity of responsible, sane people to own a gun for self-defense - if they felt they needed it. It just might make the initial gun purchase take a little while longer.

                            But we already do have licensing and screening as you pointed out. And the vast majority of gun owners never use them to kill anyone or to commit crimes. Even the vast majority of AR15 owners. There are millions of AR15 owners and what, maybe a dozen or so used in mass shootings? Banning AR15's for the misuse by a few criminals would be like banning cars because of drunk drivers.
                            You don't need an AR15 for self-defense, a pump action shotgun would do just as well, and probably be more likely to actually be effective. And you don't have to worry about the ammo you fire that misses going another 2 miles and killing some kid on his porch. And you don't have to be nearly as good an aim. And the crazies definitely don't need access to an AR15. The potential for mass casualty it just too high to be worth the risk. So while I don't know if an out and out ban is necessary, the bar should be fairly high to obtain it - and keep it.


                            Jim
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              Do you think that all of our rights should be subjected to "reasonable controls", or just some of them? Oh, be careful where you step, because that slope is treacherously slippery.

                              And before you say it, yes, you do have a protected right to yell "Fire!" without cause in a crowded theater. That act is legal in and of itself. What is not legal is the ensuing panic caused by your outburst and for which you can and should be held accountable. I personally think there are too many restrictions placed on gun ownership as it is.
                              I fail to see the difference in your analogy. I mean, even if people didn't panic and stampede, you'd probably be looking at some consequences just based on the potential harm of your actions. It's almost like you are saying 'It's not the fall the kills you, it's hitting the ground at 100mph'. Which is true - but meaningless in almost all situations where you are falling at 100mph without a parachute.

                              There is too much irresponsible and criminal gun use. There are other ways to kill of course. But the other ways available to a normal US citizen are not nearly so easy, nearly so fast, or nearly so distant. Guns, and especially guns with the power and speed of something like an AR15 give a single person way too much power, and only those that have proven they are worthy of that power should be granted access to it.

                              Jim
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                NZ's Prime Minister is turning thousands of her citizens into instant criminals
                                They have been given amnesty and will probably have their weapons bought back by the government as occurred successfully in Australia 20 years agar following the Port Arthur massacre.

                                The way these liberals overreact and use every such incident as an excuse to take away guns from law abiding citizens makes me wonder if they don't set these incidents in motion themselves.
                                It is not “overreacting” to introduce laws that restrict gun ownership. It is responsible behavior by a responsible government to deal with major gun violence when it occurs, as opposed to the irresponsible behavior of US lawmakers who do nothing, despite US gun deaths rising to the highest level in 20 years.

                                https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...evels-cdc-2017
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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