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Mass shootings at New Zealand mosques...

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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    And some can manufacture their own gun. We do control very carefully access to poisons and explosives. And it does generally, at least so far, make it harder to get these things.

    Your and pixies special case examples do not negate my point, otherwise each of you would have no trouble contenting yourselves with similar knives instead of an ar15 as an instrument of self defense.

    Jim
    Well Jim, since it is MY life on the line, in cases of self-defense I believe I want the most effective weapon I can get. If you were defending yourself and your family against home invaders would you be satisfied with a knife or would you rather have an AR15?

    And what special case examples? If you had a sword or machete in a room full of defenseless students you actually think they could take you down before you killed or injured several of them? Or if you were barricaded in a high rise hotel room shooting a bow and arrow at people in a crowd that you couldn't kill several before they could stop you? Or that you couldn't drive a truck down a crowded street killing a dozen people?

    and why do you keep dodging my questions?

    Would the founding fathers have used AR15s if they had them or would they consider them too dangerous to arm farmers with during the revolutionary war?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      1) if the people in the classroom fight back, they have a chance with a person with a knife, not so much the ar15.
      sure, eventually. maybe.
      2) the school resource officer will have a gun and can kill or otherwise disable the fellow with the knife far easier than the fellow with the ar15.
      Oh so a GUN is useful for self-defense but you want to keep them out of the hands of the public?


      3) no, i did not ignore your question. They would use what the military required.
      There was no military. They were a bunch of farmers and ordinary people who banded together to form the revolutionary army. Using whatever weapons they could find. If they had AR15s they would have used them gladly. This is the mindset of the people who wrote the 2nd amendment. Fresh from that war. They wanted any weapon to be available to the ordinary citizens. Guns, knives, cannons. NO abridgment of their rights.

      I do believe that had the constitution been written in the world as it is today, we would not have the 2nd amendment as it currently exists. It is simply too obvious modern weaponry is simply too powerful for what they were hoping to accomplish to be practical.
      If we wrote the constitution after fighting a bloody war with a country trying to oppress us and it required our citizens to have fought, man, woman and child, we would write the 2nd amendment in the exact same way. Maybe making even more clear than they did that we want any weapons available to our citizens.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Well Jim, since it is MY life on the line, in cases of self-defense I believe I want the most effective weapon I can get. If you were defending yourself and your family against home invaders would you be satisfied with a knife or would you rather have an AR15?
        That would be avoiding the point of the content of my reply. Which is that if a crazed person intent on killing as many as possible is just as effective with a knife as an AR15, then you should have no reason to need an AR15. The pix and you are trying to say that if we limit weapons like an AR15 they can just do the same thing with normal guns or knives, which is just stupid. And how stupid it is is made quite clear by the fact that you clearly recognize the enhanced power of the AR15 when choosing your defensive weapon. It gives you so much more power over any attacker (except one armed with a similar weapon) that you feel much more capable of fending them off with it than you would other weapons. Well, the same defensive power it gives you is the same offensive power it gives an attacker. Overwhelming force. And that is why it needs to be controlled more closely than the typical handgun or rifle.

        And the truth is, with the proper controls and restrictions, there should be no reason you could not own an AR15. I doubt you would be the sort of person that could not qualify for the ownership of such a weapon. You just wouldn't be able to pop down to the local gun store and pick one up right before the local gun club meeting like you can in most states if you are over 18.

        https://thetab.com/us/2016/06/14/wha...an-ar-15-19833

        And what special case examples? If you had a sword or machete in a room full of defenseless students you actually think they could take you down before you killed or injured several of them?
        In the time it would take to kill 2 with a machete, the entire room would be wiped out with an ar15. And while if these were 3 years olds the outcome might be similar regardless the weapon, not so if they were high schoolers. They can run. Many of them faster than the fellow with the machete. No one can outrun an ar15 round.

        Or if you were barricaded in a high rise hotel room shooting a bow and arrow at people in a crowd that you couldn't kill several before they could stop you? Or that you couldn't drive a truck down a crowded street killing a dozen people?
        Lets suppose the each individual arrow was as lethal at 100 yards as an ar15 bullet (which it isn't) or as accurate (which it isn't), you can't fire 2 arrows per second, let alone the 9 per second or so he was able to fire with the bump stock. You can't even fire 3 per second (the number of times a person can expect to pull a trigger on a semi-automatic rifle). You can't even fire 1 per second. And the arrow can't kill multiple people at the same time at that range, and AR15 bullet can.

        It's not that a person can't do damage with other types of readily available weapons. Its that the AR15 can do orders of magnitude more damage in a shorter period of time.

        and why do you keep dodging my questions?
        I'm not dodging your questions. I've answered all of them. You just can't seem to figure out I answered you, even when I tell you I'm answering you.

        Would the founding fathers have used AR15s if they had them or would they consider them too dangerous to arm farmers with during the revolutionary war?
        I already answered you twice. I doubt one more time will satisfy you. But what you fail to grasp is the issue is not if the AR15 is a useful weapon in times of war. The issue is whether or not the AR15 is too powerful a weapon to be available to the general non-military public without restriction or control.


        Jim
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 03-24-2019, 05:56 PM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          i suppose that in your mind a GROUP of men is the same as ONE man?

          Jim
          I suppose you live in a hole and haven’t read the news reports where knife wielding suspects take out a few people before either giving up, being killed by armed people, or fleeing and getting caught later. The idea that you can disarm a knife wielding suspect is rarely reality.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            That would be avoiding the point of the content of my reply. Which is that if a crazed person intent on killing as many as possible is just as effective with a knife as an AR15, then you should have no reason to need an AR15. The pix and you are trying to say that if we limit weapons like an AR15 they can just do the same thing with normal guns or knives, which is just stupid. And how stupid it is is made quite clear by the fact that you clearly recognize the enhanced power of the AR15 when choosing your defensive weapon. It gives you so much more power over any attacker (except one armed with a similar weapon) that you feel much more capable of fending them off with it than you would other weapons. Well, the same defensive power it gives you is the same offensive power it gives an attacker. Overwhelming force. And that is why it needs to be controlled more closely than the typical handgun or rifle.
            you are the one missing the point. I WANT to have a weapon that is better than the criminal. If he is wielding a knife I want a gun. If there are more than one of them I want a semi-auto gun. I don't want a fair fight, Jim. I want to win by any means necessary.

            Why shouldn't I be able to have the most powerful weapon that can be made to protect myself? Who are you to limit my ability to protect MY life or those I love? Who are you to tell me I have to use an inferior weapon against a criminal who won't be limited by the law. Why should I not be able to own an AR15 when the criminal can get one illegally anyway? All you want to do is hamstring the legal owners who won't be shooting up schools or attacking people in crowds. Your restrictions aren't going to stop the criminals who are determined to murder. At best it might stop a few who do such things on the spur of the moment. But if they are determined they will find a way.


            And the truth is, with the proper controls and restrictions, there should be no reason you could not own an AR15. I doubt you would be the sort of person that could not qualify for the ownership of such a weapon. You just wouldn't be able to pop down to the local gun store and pick one up right before the local gun club meeting like you can in most states if you are over 18.

            https://thetab.com/us/2016/06/14/wha...an-ar-15-19833
            When people properly obey the laws we already have your complaints go away. How will adding more restrictions that they don't follow help? In the link above they didn't check his license properly and he didn't actually do the background check because he said he changed his mind before they did. So how do you know he would have passed? And if they did check his license properly they wouldn't have sold it to him.


            In the time it would take to kill 2 with a machete, the entire room would be wiped out with an ar15.
            or a semi-auto pistol, or shotgun. What makes the AR15 any different than any other gun?
            And you are wrong, slashing a machete in a closed room with an element of surprise you could injure or kill more than 2 people in a couple of seconds just swinging the thing around. You have to actually aim and pull the trigger each time to shoot the gun. They have just as much chance of stopping you by mobbing you or throwing desks at you as they would someone with a knife. Plus it is harder to conceal an AR15, you can easily conceal a machete.
            And while if these were 3 years olds the outcome might be similar regardless the weapon, not so if they were high schoolers. They can run. Many of them faster than the fellow with the machete. No one can outrun an ar15 round.
            In a closed classroom you can't run regardless.


            Lets suppose the each individual arrow was as lethal at 100 yards as an ar15 bullet (which it isn't) or as accurate (which it isn't), you can't fire 2 arrows per second, let alone the 9 per second or so he was able to fire with the bump stock. You can't even fire 3 per second (the number of times a person can expect to pull a trigger on a semi-automatic rifle). You can't even fire 1 per second. And the arrow can't kill multiple people at the same time at that range, and AR15 bullet can.
            I wasn't counting bodies, I was saying you can kill multiple people with a bow and arrow from a distance. And you can't hear a bow. Shooting into a crowd you could kill several before anyone even knew something was going on. and here is someone that shows they can shoot a bow and arrow nearly as fast as a semi-auto gun. and at a distance of 60 yards




            It's not that a person can't do damage with other types of readily available weapons. Its that the AR15 can do orders of magnitude more damage in a shorter period of time.
            an AR15 isn't magic Jim. It is a simple semi-auto rifle just like any other semi-auto rifle you can buy to hunt with. Or a semi-auto pistol. In fact you could probably do more damage in one of those mass shooting horrors with a pistol. Easier to hide, move and shoot. and at the distances you find in these situations a pistol would be just as accurate.






            I already answered you twice. I doubt one more time will satisfy you. But what you fail to grasp is the issue is not if the AR15 is a useful weapon in times of war. The issue is whether or not the AR15 is too powerful a weapon to be available to the general non-military public without restriction or control.


            Jim
            And the 2nd amendment was written for use in a possible war. if you remove the ability to own such weapons you are defeating the purpose of the amendment. And the supreme court has upheld the 2nd's use for self-defense. If I am being attacked in my home, you can be sure it is just as real as a war to me.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Or that you couldn't drive a truck down a crowded street killing a dozen people?
              Only a dozen?

              2016: 80 dead, 18 critically hurt in Nice, France, truck attack
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                you are the one missing the point. I WANT to have a weapon that is better than the criminal. If he is wielding a knife I want a gun. If there are more than one of them I want a semi-auto gun. I don't want a fair fight, Jim. I want to win by any means necessary.

                Why shouldn't I be able to have the most powerful weapon that can be made to protect myself? Who are you to limit my ability to protect MY life or those I love? Who are you to tell me I have to use an inferior weapon against a criminal who won't be limited by the law. Why should I not be able to own an AR15 when the criminal can get one illegally anyway? All you want to do is hamstring the legal owners who won't be shooting up schools or attacking people in crowds. Your restrictions aren't going to stop the criminals who are determined to murder. At best it might stop a few who do such things on the spur of the moment. But if they are determined they will find a way.
                Because making that weapon easy for you to have means it also makes it easy for people that will plan and execute a mass shooting to do so.



                When people properly obey the laws we already have your complaints go away. How will adding more restrictions that they don't follow help? In the link above they didn't check his license properly and he didn't actually do the background check because he said he changed his mind before they did. So how do you know he would have passed? And if they did check his license properly they wouldn't have sold it to him.
                That is a nice theory - but obviously something is broken. So let's assume you are correct and enforcing the current laws would be enough. There still needs to be something done to make sure those laws are enforce - yes? And why aren't you and others that want to have your guns pushing as hard as you can to make sure the NRA and other groups can't interfere with exactly that?

                or a semi-auto pistol, or shotgun. What makes the AR15 any different than any other gun?
                You ask a question like that to counter one statement I make, and say the exact opposite just a few lines above. So I'm going to ask you - what makes and AR15 different from any other gun? Why do YOU need an AR15 for self-defense if any semi-automatic pistol, or a shotgun will do?

                You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

                Jim
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Yes because we have had hate speech laws for 10,000 years now.
                  One deals with problems as they arise. If “hate speech” results in massacres or other forms unacceptable behavior, then a responsible government will take legislative action to minimize the problem.

                  The same applies to gun violence. If existing gun laws result in a massacre as in NZ (or Australia previously) then a responsible prime minister will adjust the law to eliminate or minimize the problem. This occurred successfully in Australia 20 years ago and probably will in NZ as well.

                  The same cannot be said of the US, where gun violence results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually. And nothing is done.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    Because making that weapon easy for you to have means it also makes it easy for people that will plan and execute a mass shooting to do so.
                    Outlawing them only makes it impossible for law abiding citizens to get them, not criminals. They can still get them on the black market. There are enough out there now that even if they stopped making them they would still be easy to get. You are not doing anything but keeping the weapons out of the hand of people who would NOT misuse them. Like making Truck illegal because some people used them to mass murder people in France and the UK.



                    That is a nice theory - but obviously something is broken. So let's assume you are correct and enforcing the current laws would be enough. There still needs to be something done to make sure those laws are enforce - yes? And why aren't you and others that want to have your guns pushing as hard as you can to make sure the NRA and other groups can't interfere with exactly that?
                    Nice theory? Your article proved that they are not enforcing the laws we have. They missed that his license was expired. The NRA isn't interfering with the laws we have. That's crazy talk. The ones who are in charge of enforcing the rules are the police and the firearms dealers. Passing more restrictions isn't going to do anything if they aren't enforcing the rules now. But most of them ARE doing it correctly. You only hear about the few who don't because then it is news.


                    You ask a question like that to counter one statement I make, and say the exact opposite just a few lines above. So I'm going to ask you - what makes and AR15 different from any other gun? Why do YOU need an AR15 for self-defense if any semi-automatic pistol, or a shotgun will do?

                    You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

                    Jim
                    Because I can shoot an AR15 more accurately than I can a shotgun and not put holes all over my house or have guts spread all over the floor, it kicks less, and it looks scarier to the guy breaking into my house. I want all the advantages I can get. Also it is only the person buying the gun's business which gun he prefers, not yours. If he wants a semi-auto pistol (which is what I currently have) then that is his business. If he wants a shotgun or an AR15 then that is his business too. What right do you have to tell them what weapon they can defend their life with?

                    You think a shotgun is OK but an AR15 is not? Why?

                    Here is a semi-auto shotgun that looks like an AR style weapon and can shoot just as fast as you can pull the trigger. You think this is OK but an AR-15 should be restricted?

                    semiauto.jpg

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      One deals with problems as they arise. If “hate speech” results in massacres or other forms unacceptable behavior, then a responsible government will take legislative action to minimize the problem.

                      The same applies to gun violence. If existing gun laws result in a massacre as in NZ (or Australia previously) then a responsible prime minister will adjust the law to eliminate or minimize the problem. This occurred successfully in Australia 20 years ago and probably will in NZ as well.

                      The same cannot be said of the US, where gun violence results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually. And nothing is done.
                      You are drifting away from the point that words have killed more people than guns. And that even when guns kill people, it is most likely that words incited them to do it.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                        I wasn't counting bodies, I was saying you can kill multiple people with a bow and arrow from a distance. And you can't hear a bow. Shooting into a crowd you could kill several before anyone even knew something was going on. and here is someone that shows they can shoot a bow and arrow nearly as fast as a semi-auto gun. and at a distance of 60 yards
                        Using the bump stock, he was able to shoot 9 rounds per second. The bullets are moving at 3 times the speed of sound. So if it takes 1/2 second for the sound to travel 200 yards and the human response time in such a confusing situation is going to be 2 to 3 seconds at least, that is 16 to 22 rounds before anyone has a clue what is going on.

                        Each arrow needs to pierce a critical organ, slice an artery or pierce the skull to be fatal. each ar15 round, because of cavitation, creates a shock wave as it moves through a body that can be as much as 2 inches across. It can kill if it gets anywhere near a vital organ or artery. It also can travel through one person and into another, and can pierce or fragment bone at 4x the distance an arrow can.


                        That is a highly trained person Sparko. How many YEARS of work does it take to get that proficient? A person like myself could kill 3 people per second with an AR15 within seconds of buying it. I have no specialized training in firearms but am a decent shot with a rifle.

                        an AR15 isn't magic Jim. It is a simple semi-auto rifle just like any other semi-auto rifle you can buy to hunt with. Or a semi-auto pistol. In fact you could probably do more damage in one of those mass shooting horrors with a pistol. Easier to hide, move and shoot. and at the distances you find in these situations a pistol would be just as accurate.
                        No, you can't do with a pistol what you can do with an AR15. The muzzle velocity of 3300 ft per second makes an AR15 bullet SIGNIFICANTLY more lethal than a 9mm pistol round. The 20 to 31 bullet typical capacity gives you 2 to 3 times the bullets before reloading.

                        The lack of recoil makes keeping that AR15 pointed at your targets significantly easier than a typical gun or rifle that does not have that feature.

                        And this is without any sort of augmented capacity magazine or bump stock.

                        -- YOU ARE PURPOSEFULLY FALSELY MINIMIZING THE POWER OF THE AR15 TO SKEW YOUR ARGUMENT --

                        Try arguing honestly Sparko, with the facts. Let the truth win and not your personal preference.

                        As I have said before: Your preference for the AR15 for self-defense shows you know the sort of argumentation you are using above is flawed. It is unfortunate you can't step back and honestly assess that reality.






                        And the 2nd amendment was written for use in a possible war. if you remove the ability to own such weapons you are defeating the purpose of the amendment. And the supreme court has upheld the 2nd's use for self-defense. If I am being attacked in my home, you can be sure it is just as real as a war to me.
                        Against tanks, various aircraft armed with large caliber rounds that can fire at thousands of rounds per minute, bombs, professional soldiers in full protective gear? Again, if you want a backup civilian army, then in this day and age we all need specialized training and more powerful weapons. And even then, you are not going to be handing those more powerful weapons and specialized training out to people that can't be trusted to be responsible with them.


                        Jim
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 03-25-2019, 07:45 AM.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Using the bump stock, he was able to shoot 9 rounds per second. The bullets are moving at 3 times the speed of sound. So if it takes 1/2 second for the sound to travel 200 yards and the human response time in such a confusing situation is going to be 2 to 3 seconds at least, that is 16 to 22 rounds before anyone has a clue what is going on.

                          Each arrow needs to pierce a critical organ, slice an artery or pierce the skull to be fatal. each ar15 round, because of cavitation, creates a shock wave as it moves through a body that can be as much as 2 inches across. It can kill if it gets anywhere near a vital organ or artery. It also can travel through one person and into another, and can pierce or fragment bone at 4x the distance an arrow can.




                          That is a highly trained person Sparko. How many YEARS of work does it take to get that proficient? A person like myself could kill 3 people per second with an AR15 within seconds of buying it. I have no specialized training in firearms but am a decent shot with a rifle.



                          No, you can't do with a pistol what you can do with an AR15. The muzzle velocity of 3300 ft per second makes an AR15 bullet SIGNIFICANTLY more lethal than a 9mm pistol round. The 20 to 31 bullet typical capacity gives you 2 to 3 times the bullets before reloading.
                          OK you are just showing you know nothing about firearms and so you shouldn't be pontificating on the matter.
                          I have a pistol that has a 17 round magazine and can buy a magazine that extends that even further. It takes me less than 1/2 a second to change the magazine out, and I can carry several with me preloaded. The AR15 basically uses a .22 bullet. It will most likely just go right through you. A 9MM hollow point will fracture and create significantly more damage. More velocity is not better at short ranges. You want slower velocity and bigger/heavier bullets. A .45 will do even more damage.


                          The lack of recoil makes keeping that AR15 pointed at your targets significantly easier than a typical gun or rifle that does not have that feature.
                          I can shoot my pistol just as fast and return it to where I am aiming within a 1/10 of a second. Basically your hand just returns to where it was right after you fire. You can hardly see the gun move up and back down. The kick is negligible.


                          -- YOU ARE PURPOSEFULLY FALSELY MINIMIZING THE POWER OF THE AR15 TO SKEW YOUR ARGUMENT --
                          You have no idea what you are even talking about Jim. It's like Jorge arguing with you about science.





                          Against tanks, various aircraft armed with large caliber rounds that can fire at thousands of rounds per minute, bombs, professional soldiers in full protective gear? Again, if you want a backup civilian army, then in this day and age we all need specialized training and more powerful weapons. And even then, you are not going to be handing those more powerful weapons and specialized training out to people that can't be trusted to be responsible with them.


                          Jim
                          Unless an army wants to wipe out the civilian population, they will have to fight in person, just look at how well the civilian armies have kept our armies in check in the middle east for 2 decades. And as I told you before, it is perfectly legal to own tanks and armored vehicles. You can buy them at government auctions. And again the supreme court has said that self-defense is a valid reason to own guns.

                          The fact is Jim, the 2nd amendment means I don't have to justify to you what weapons I want to use for self-defense. IF I could get a full auto rifle, I would. I want the BEST weapon I can handle for self defense. I want to stack the deck. And you have no right to tell me I can't. Especially since you obviously have no idea about how guns work in the first place. You are not talking out of both sides of your mouth, you are talking out of your rear end.

                          And as I said, I don't have an AR15. I have a 9MM for self defense. I think that is easier to handle in a house and will do more damage at close range. BUT if someone wants to use an AR15 because they feel it is scarier to the guy staring down the barrel, or whatever other reason they have, then that is their business. I kind of want an AR15 just for target shooting. I think they are fun to shoot. My brother has one.
                          Last edited by Sparko; 03-25-2019, 08:08 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            OK you are just showing you know nothing about firearms and so you shouldn't be pontificating on the matter.
                            I have a pistol that has a 17 round magazine and can buy a magazine that extends that even further. It takes me less than 1/2 a second to change the magazine out, and I can carry several with me preloaded. The AR15 basically uses a .22 bullet. It will most likely just go right through you. A 9MM hollow point will fracture and create significantly more damage. More velocity is not better at short ranges. You want slower velocity and bigger/heavier bullets. A .45 will do even more damage.

                            No Sparko! You need to actually do some research instead of just assuming you know what is going on. A high velocity round like what comes out of a AR15 does NOT just go right through you. It creates a massive shock wave because it is going significantly faster than the speed of sound and does significantly more damage that a typical pistol round. Especially if it is a bullet designed to fragment.

                            There have been several times you and others have said 'It's basically a .22 bullet'. That is its caliber (+.003) - yes. But the fact it doesn't knock you back is the AR15 recoil absorption properties. The bullet itself has 1.5 to 2 times the mass and it's velocity is 2.8x that of the 22 lr, and at 3300 feet per second the behavior as it passes through the person (and the person behind them) is completely different! You keep trying to minimize the AR15 rather than understanding the differences. And you keep trying to pretend I don't know anything about guns. This is all very dishonest Sparko. Why are you being so dishonest? It does not speak well of you or your capacity for objectivity on this issue.

                            As far as knockdown power, that is mass times momentum, and yes larger bullets can impart more energy to their targets in terms of pushback. But an ar15 round passing anywhere near the heart, vital organ, or artery will burst it, rip it to shreds. So the fellow might keep moving towards you due to momentum, but he is already dead.

                            Jim
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              No Sparko! You need to actually do some research instead of just assuming you know what is going on. A high velocity round like what comes out of a AR15 does NOT just go right through you. It creates a massive shock wave because it is going significantly faster than the speed of sound and does significantly more damage that a typical pistol round. Especially if it is a bullet designed to fragment.

                              There have been several times you and others have said 'It's basically a .22 bullet'. That is its caliber (+.003) - yes. But the fact it doesn't knock you back is the AR15 recoil absorption properties. The bullet itself has 1.5 to 2 times the mass and it's velocity is 2.8x that of the 22 lr, and at 3300 feet per second the behavior as it passes through the person (and the person behind them) is completely different! You keep trying to minimize the AR15 rather than understanding the differences. And you keep trying to pretend I don't know anything about guns. This is all very dishonest Sparko. Why are you being so dishonest? It does not speak well of you or your capacity for objectivity on this issue.

                              As far as knockdown power, that is mass times momentum, and yes larger bullets can impart more energy to their targets in terms of pushback. But an ar15 round passing anywhere near the heart, vital organ, or artery will burst it, rip it to shreds. So the fellow might keep moving towards you due to momentum, but he is already dead.

                              Jim
                              I see you have been googling again.

                              A hollow point .45 will shred everything in its path too and it is designed to create a shockwave. Dead is dead.

                              And here are some videos comparing 9mm with an AR15

                              Shooting through wood a 9mm does more damage and an AR15 just passes right through.

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P79pZCByKVs

                              Shooting at water jugs which probably closer represents a body, the 9MM and Ar15 both do about the same damage:
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxg8sLIm8SE

                              Shooting at a pig's head, the 9MM does more damage on the inside and on the way out, the AR 15 does more damage on the impact but doesn't do much on the inside. Leaves a small diameter hole where the 9MM blasted out a large chunk of meat an bone.
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qFSzuUm9-Y

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                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                                Shooting at a pig's head, the 9MM does more damage on the inside and on the way out, the AR 15 does more damage on the impact but doesn't do much on the inside. Leaves a small diameter hole where the 9MM blasted out a large chunk of meat an bone.
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qFSzuUm9-Y
                                Bacon!
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