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New Cambrian fossil diversity in China ~518 million years old.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, from the opening post: "Animal life exploded in diversity and form during the Cambrian period about 500 million years ago." So 518 million year old fossils would be right at the pre-Cambrian boundary.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Um, no.

    The Cambrian Period started roughly 541 million years ago (mya) and lasted approximately 55.6 million years (meaning it ended around 485.4 mya). That would put 518 mya real close to the middle of the Cambrian. Maybe these two timelines will help



    Click on an image XXXX
    to enbiggenate XXXX
    CambrianChart.PNG XX CambrianChart2.jpg
    Click on resulting XXXX
    image to increase XXXX
    enbiggenation XXXX

    Also note that the "Cambrian explosion" took place over a period that lasted at least 20 millions years. This is why folks like the noted geologist and paleontologist Donald R. Prothero as a "slow fuse" rather than an explosion.

    ETA: For whatever reason only the first enbiggenates
    Last edited by rogue06; 03-29-2019, 02:19 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
      First sentence of the Wikipedia article, bolding added:
      "The Cambrian explosion or Cambrian radiation[1] was an event approximately 541 million years ago in the Cambrian period..."
      Alrighty, I stand corrected.

      Originally posted by Tabibito
      And fossilised bodies of soft tissue animals from the Edicaran era - are well known.
      It would be interesting to know if these Ediacaran animals are considered predecessors of these Cambrian animals.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        I think you misunderstand me, I meant that scientists have postulated soft-bodied creatures as a missing link explaining the sudden appearance of Cambrian animals. Now they have such soft-bodied fossils! And this makes the Cambrian conundrum worse, because now they can see soft-bodied creatures in that time frame, and they appear to be Cambrian animals, not Cambrian predecessors.
        A rare variation of the monkey non-argument: "if Cambrian animals evolved from soft-bodied animals, why are there still soft-bodied animals?"
        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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        • #19
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          It would be interesting to know if these Ediacaran animals are considered predecessors of these Cambrian animals.
          ...but (as usual with Dory) not interesting enough to bother looking.
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Roy View Post
            A rare variation of the monkey non-argument: "if Cambrian animals evolved from soft-bodied animals, why are there still soft-bodied animals?"
            No, I meant that these newly discovered soft-bodied fossils don't seem to have Ediacaran predecessors, certainly not Dickinsonia and Spriggina.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              Alrighty, I stand corrected.


              It would be interesting to know if these Ediacaran animals are considered predecessors of these Cambrian animals.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              They are considered predecessors and some still exist in the early Cambrian. There is an observable pattern of increased complexity of animals.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                They are considered predecessors and some still exist in the early Cambrian. There is an observable pattern of increased complexity of animals.
                Well, again, I don't think Dickinsonia and Spriggina are considered predecessors, which ones did you have in mind?

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  Well, again, I don't think Dickinsonia and Spriggina are considered predecessors, which ones did you have in mind?

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  Too clarify; what is your source?

                  Here is one source, and I may cite more . . .

                  Source: https://www.pnas.org/content/112/16/4865



                  The advent of animals: The view from the Ediacaran
                  Significance
                  Patterns of evolution, origination, and extinction of early animal life on this planet are largely interpreted from fossils of the soft-bodied Ediacara Biota, Earth’s earliest multicellular communities preserved globally. The record of these organisms predates the well-known Cambrian Explosion by nearly 40 million years and provides critical information concerning early experimentation with complex life-forms on Earth. Here we show that, although in appearance, these organisms look very strange and unfamiliar, many of them may have had a biology and/or ecology similar to animals today, and some were most certainly bilaterians, cnidarians, and poriferans.

                  Abstract

                  Patterns of origination and evolution of early complex life on this planet are largely interpreted from the fossils of the Precambrian soft-bodied Ediacara Biota. These fossils occur globally and represent a diverse suite of organisms living in marine environments. Although these exceptionally preserved fossil assemblages are typically difficult to reconcile with modern phyla, examination of the morphology, ecology, and taphonomy of these taxa provides keys to their relationships with modern taxa. Within the more than 30 million y range of the Ediacara Biota, fossils of these multicellular organisms demonstrate the advent of mobility, heterotrophy by multicellular animals, skeletonization, sexual reproduction, and the assembly of complex ecosystems, all of which are attributes of modern animals. This approach to these fossils, without the constraint of attempting phylogenetic reconstructions, provides a mechanism for comparing these taxa with both living and extinct animals.

                  Concluding Remarks

                  Taken as a whole, the Ediacara Biota represents an enigmatic assemblage of fossils that are not easily related to modern taxa. However, examination of aspects of the ecology, such as trace fossils, taphonomy, and morphology, reveal that these fossils show characteristics of modern taxa. It is clear that bilaterians, cnidarians, and poriferans are represented among the Ediacara Biota. Although we may never be able to reconcile the phylogeny of all, or even most, of the Ediacara taxa, it is likely that with these approaches, we will be able to continue to better relate these taxa with both modern and extinct animals.

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  . . . and there are more Ediacaran genera . . .


                  list of ediacaran genera

                  Spriggina
                  Dickinsonia
                  Kimberella
                  Charnia
                  Parvancorina
                  Cyclomedusa
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-31-2019, 01:27 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill
                    I think you misunderstand me, I meant that scientists have postulated soft-bodied creatures as a missing link explaining the sudden appearance of Cambrian animals. Now they have such soft-bodied fossils! And this makes the Cambrian conundrum worse, because now they can see soft-bodied creatures in that time frame, and they appear to be Cambrian animals, not Cambrian predecessors.
                    A rare variation of the monkey non-argument: "if Cambrian animals evolved from soft-bodied animals, why are there still soft-bodied animals?"
                    No, I meant that these newly discovered soft-bodied fossils don't seem to have Ediacaran predecessors, certainly not Dickinsonia and Spriggina.
                    Oh, so you were inventing garbage as usual.

                    The article doesn't provide enough detail about the soft-bodied fossils to determine whether or not we have any possible predecessors for them.
                    In addition to the high taxonomic diversity, Qingjiang fossils are characterized by near-pristine preservation of soft-bodied organisms — including juvenile or larval forms, arthropod and worm cuticles and jellyfishes — and such soft-tissue features as eyes, gills and guts.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      Well, again, I don't think Dickinsonia and Spriggina are considered predecessors, which ones did you have in mind?
                      Since you not only ignore the vast majority of available information in favour of Discovery Institute misinformation, but can't even work out when any predecessors would have existed, why would anyone care in the slightest what you think???
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Source: PNAS

                        Taken as a whole, the Ediacara Biota represents an enigmatic assemblage of fossils that are not easily related to modern taxa. However, examination of aspects of the ecology, such as trace fossils, taphonomy, and morphology, reveal that these fossils show characteristics of modern taxa.

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        I think they're struggling! But none of this names actual predecessors.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          I think they're struggling! But none of this names actual predecessors.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          You are the one struggling on a perpetual motion machine of a vague attempt of 'arguing from ignorance.' I am providing the scientific references.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill, quote-mining coprolite
                            I think they're struggling! But none of this names actual predecessors.
                            Strange. When I read the paper, I find passages such as this:
                            Source: ibid

                            A relatively new Ediacara fossil, Coronacollina acula, described by Clites and colleagues (27), is preserved in the Ediacara Member (Rawnsley Quartzite) of South Australia and represents the oldest multielement organism (Fig. 3). Coronacollina consists of a triradial truncated cone associated with ruler-straight spicules, up to 37 cm in length, diverging radially from the cone. The spicules most commonly disarticulated after death and only rarely are found attached to the truncated cone. The morphologic consistency between articulated and disarticulated spicules suggests they were made of a rigid substance, such as opaline silica or calcium carbonate. In life, the spicules likely provided structural support in a manner similar to the Cambrian demosponge, Choia. ... Constructed from a framework of rigid and brittle elements, Coronacollina reveals a constructional mode only recently recognized among members of the Ediacara biota. It provides a link in constructional mode across the Cambrian boundary and sheds light on the development of structural support in early sponges.

                            © Copyright Original Source


                            That names Coronacollina as an actual predecessor (of sponges).
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Well, again, I don't think Dickinsonia and Spriggina are considered predecessors, which ones did you have in mind?

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              Let's review your original post. You have not provided a reference for your assertion, except 'I don't think.' As I posted I am 'waiting for references beyond 'I don't think.' It is already assumed you 'don't think' there are the intermediates to justify evolution based on Discovery Institute assertions. As documented over the years there is the Fundamentalist Christian agenda going on here not found in the academic world outside this cloistered community. You need to present more specific academic references, and not wiki sound bites, and out of context references that go beyond 'I think.'

                              The reference I gave, of course. outlined the problems with the limited Ediacaran fossils, but you are ignoring the present knowledge concerning the evolutionary link between the simpler Ediacaran soft bodied animals and the more complex Cambrian.

                              Source: https://www.pnas.org/content/112/16/4865


                              Concluding Remarks

                              Taken as a whole, the Ediacara Biota represents an enigmatic assemblage of fossils that are not easily related to modern taxa. However, examination of aspects of the ecology, such as trace fossils, taphonomy, and morphology, reveal that these fossils show characteristics of modern taxa. It is clear that bilaterians, cnidarians, and poriferans are represented among the Ediacara Biota. Although we may never be able to reconcile the phylogeny of all, or even most, of the Ediacara taxa, it is likely that with these approaches, we will be able to continue to better relate these taxa with both modern and extinct animals.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              It is important that the basic characteristics of modern taxa are present in the simpler soft bodied animals of the Ediacaran. The bilateral, cnidarian and poriferan body geometries important to evolutionary relationships are present in the Ediacaran animals.

                              Let's get rid of 'I think,' Wiki sound bites, selective references out of context, and bogus religious agenda Discovery Institute ENRON book keeping and come up with complete academic references that support your case.

                              Again, evolution is environment change driven, and stable environments that are not changing evolution will be in stasis and not change significantly. When environments change evolution will result in more change. Regardless evolution takes place over millions of years in all cases, and not fast nor slow.

                              Your claim of 'no actual predecessors' reflects your lack of your own research, knowledge, and a severe religious Discovery Institute bias. Please also not Roy's post, which further documents evidence of predecessors of Cambrian and later animals in the Ediacaran fossils.

                              More academic reference to follow, and not Wiki sound bites, and selective references out of context.
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-02-2019, 07:27 AM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                Source: PNAS

                                Taken as a whole, the Ediacara Biota represents an enigmatic assemblage of fossils that are not easily related to modern taxa. However, examination of aspects of the ecology, such as trace fossils, taphonomy, and morphology, reveal that these fossils show characteristics of modern taxa.

                                © Copyright Original Source


                                Strange. When I read the paper, I find passages such as this:
                                Source: ibid

                                A relatively new Ediacara fossil, Coronacollina acula, described by Clites and colleagues (27), is preserved in the Ediacara Member (Rawnsley Quartzite) of South Australia and represents the oldest multielement organism (Fig. 3). Coronacollina consists of a triradial truncated cone associated with ruler-straight spicules, up to 37 cm in length, diverging radially from the cone. The spicules most commonly disarticulated after death and only rarely are found attached to the truncated cone. The morphologic consistency between articulated and disarticulated spicules suggests they were made of a rigid substance, such as opaline silica or calcium carbonate. In life, the spicules likely provided structural support in a manner similar to the Cambrian demosponge, Choia. ... Constructed from a framework of rigid and brittle elements, Coronacollina reveals a constructional mode only recently recognized among members of the Ediacara biota. It provides a link in constructional mode across the Cambrian boundary and sheds light on the development of structural support in early sponges.

                                © Copyright Original Source


                                That names Coronacollina as an actual predecessor (of sponges).
                                I would conclude instead that they are showing "that these fossils show characteristics of modern taxa", i.e. "a link in constructional mode", "sheds light on the development of structural support" stops short of declaring Coronacollina a predecessor.

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

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