Originally posted by Cow Poke
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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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The parable of the rich fool
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"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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I have another thought about verse 33 “Sell your possessions and give to charity;..."
The preceding 11 verses are teaching not to worry or fear about your future material needs. That too at first seems a bit strange. In a 20-verse lesson about greed, 11 verses are teaching about worry. But I'm thinking that Jesus is saying that worry/fear is a major motivator for greed: a person may strive to acquire material wealth for himself out of worry/fear about his future material needs. Fear narrows your focus to acquiring material wealth, at the expense of seeking the kingdom. The worry passage is introduced with "For this reason":
"21 So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God. 22 And He said to His disciples, “For this reason I say to you, do not worry about..."
Those 11 verses about worry are immediately followed by verse 33 "Sell your possessions and give to charity;...". My translation (NASB) has the 11 worry verses set off in their own paragraph, but what if verse 33 is part of it: an application of the teaching against worry. That is: don't let the aforementioned worry/fear get in the way of your giving to charity. You don't have to be afraid to give "for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom."
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One thing I still don't understand is what does "rich toward God" mean? ("21 So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”) That doesn't seem to make grammatical sense in English, and I wonder if it's a translation problem. In English there's no meaning to being rich "toward" something/one.
Someone in this thread suggested "not rich toward God" means "being stingy toward God". But generous (non-stingy) is not the same as rich. It's not at all clear in English that "rich toward God" would mean "generous toward God".
Perhaps it's the preposition "towards" (εἰς) that requires a better translation? Perhaps someone who knows Greek better than I could comment on that? Looking at a lexicon, it can have lots of meanings, such as: into, unto, until, towards, on behalf of.
In verse 33 Jesus contrasts material wealth with treasure in heaven. Is it making that same distinction here in v. 21? Like you can put your wealth "into" stocks or gold or real estate. Or "into" God, meaning God (or the kingdom?) is your wealth. Your wealth should be God, rather than gold. But I'm not very sure that I see anything in my lexicon that would support that particular meaning for εἰς.
Perhaps it could mean "on behalf of" or "for" God? That would parallel the dative "for himself" earlier in the same sentence. Then it would be a matter of motivation: are you doing it just for yourself, or for God.
But I'm not aware of any English translation that says "for God" here. All the translations I checked have "toward".
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Originally posted by Joel View PostOne thing I still don't understand is what does "rich toward God" mean? ("21 So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”) That doesn't seem to make grammatical sense in English, and I wonder if it's a translation problem. In English there's no meaning to being rich "toward" something/one.
Someone in this thread suggested "not rich toward God" means "being stingy toward God". But generous (non-stingy) is not the same as rich. It's not at all clear in English that "rich toward God" would mean "generous toward God".
Perhaps it's the preposition "towards" (εἰς) that requires a better translation? Perhaps someone who knows Greek better than I could comment on that? Looking at a lexicon, it can have lots of meanings, such as: into, unto, until, towards, on behalf of.
In verse 33 Jesus contrasts material wealth with treasure in heaven. Is it making that same distinction here in v. 21? Like you can put your wealth "into" stocks or gold or real estate. Or "into" God, meaning God (or the kingdom?) is your wealth. Your wealth should be God, rather than gold. But I'm not very sure that I see anything in my lexicon that would support that particular meaning for εἰς.
Perhaps it could mean "on behalf of" or "for" God? That would parallel the dative "for himself" earlier in the same sentence. Then it would be a matter of motivation: are you doing it just for yourself, or for God.
But I'm not aware of any English translation that says "for God" here. All the translations I checked have "toward".
Comment
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Originally posted by Joel View PostOne thing I still don't understand is what does "rich toward God" mean? ("21 So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”) That doesn't seem to make grammatical sense in English, and I wonder if it's a translation problem. In English there's no meaning to being rich "toward" something/one.
Someone in this thread suggested "not rich toward God" means "being stingy toward God". But generous (non-stingy) is not the same as rich. It's not at all clear in English that "rich toward God" would mean "generous toward God".
Perhaps it's the preposition "towards" (εἰς) that requires a better translation? Perhaps someone who knows Greek better than I could comment on that? Looking at a lexicon, it can have lots of meanings, such as: into, unto, until, towards, on behalf of.
In verse 33 Jesus contrasts material wealth with treasure in heaven. Is it making that same distinction here in v. 21? Like you can put your wealth "into" stocks or gold or real estate. Or "into" God, meaning God (or the kingdom?) is your wealth. Your wealth should be God, rather than gold. But I'm not very sure that I see anything in my lexicon that would support that particular meaning for εἰς.
Perhaps it could mean "on behalf of" or "for" God? That would parallel the dative "for himself" earlier in the same sentence. Then it would be a matter of motivation: are you doing it just for yourself, or for God.
But I'm not aware of any English translation that says "for God" here. All the translations I checked have "toward".Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostGod's riches are in righteous acts and not worldly wealth.
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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