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  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    But you and Tass have both conceded that the vast majority of abortions are not performed for health reasons.
    Having an abortion is itself a womens health issue. And we didn't concede anything, that the vast majority of abortions are not performed to safegaurd the womens physical health is common knowledge. As I said right off the bat, 90 some odd percent of abortions are performed in the first trimester, and few of those are done to protect the physical health of the mother.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Having an abortion is itself a womens health issue. And we didn't concede anything, that the vast majority of abortions are not performed to safegaurd the womens physical health is common knowledge. As I said right off the bat, 90 some odd percent of abortions are performed in the first trimester, and few of those are done to protect the physical health of the mother.
      I don't think you have any idea how much you are talking in circles.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
        AFAIK, trimesters have no medical significance whatsoever and are purely a convenient separation of the pregnancy by an easily divisible number. So if they're actually using the first-second trimester delineation as a measurement for viability, then their criteria is wholly arbitrary.
        No, actually there is much medical significance concerning the age of the fetus. For example, a fetus can not feel pain until 30 weeks, the third trimester, a time in which very few abortions are performed, and those are performed for health reasons.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          No, actually there is much medical significance concerning the age of the fetus. For example, a fetus can not feel pain until 30 weeks, the third trimester, a time in which very few abortions are performed, and those are performed for health reasons.

          Is that a fact?


          The old, uninformed notions that unborn and newborn babies could not feel pain are refuted by a growing body of scientific evidence. The published scientific literature shows that unborn babies can experience pain at 20 weeks gestational age (20 weeks LMP, since Last Menstrual Period, the fetal age estimate used by most obstetricians) or earlier.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • And what an insanely barbaric way to evaluate human life --- does the baby feel pain? Who gets to be the sadistic jackass who pokes and prods and watches for a pain response from an unborn baby? Somebody needs to check to see if that jackass can feel pain under various circumstances.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

              Is that a fact?


              The old, uninformed notions that unborn and newborn babies could not feel pain are refuted by a growing body of scientific evidence. The published scientific literature shows that unborn babies can experience pain at 20 weeks gestational age (20 weeks LMP, since Last Menstrual Period, the fetal age estimate used by most obstetricians) or earlier.
              Of course you are citing a biased anti abortion source. Here are 2 unbiased sources, both of which disagree with your biased source.

              http://www.livescience.com/54774-fet...nesthesia.html

              http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                And what an insanely barbaric way to evaluate human life --- does the baby feel pain? Who gets to be the sadistic jackass who pokes and prods and watches for a pain response from an unborn baby? Somebody needs to check to see if that jackass can feel pain under various circumstances.
                They don't poke and prod to see if the fetus feels pain, they study the fetal development to see when it is that the nerve connections and so forth, required to feel pain, actually develop.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Of course you are citing a biased anti abortion source. Here are 2 unbiased sources, both of which disagree with your biased source.

                  http://www.livescience.com/54774-fet...nesthesia.html

                  http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain
                  Yeah, most of the "data" comes from pro-abortion sites. But, in your big empty head, they're not biased at all.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    They don't poke and prod to see if the fetus feels pain, they study the fetal development to see when it is that the nerve connections and so forth, required to feel pain, actually develop.
                    And, from one of your pro-abortion heroes...

                    The problem with pain

                    One reason the question of fetal pain is so controversial is because pain is always a subjective experience, said Dr. Anne Davis, an OB/GYN and the consulting medical director for Physicians for Reproductive Health. Davis is an abortion provider.

                    Unlike with blood pressure or body temperature, for example, there's no definitive way to measure pain, Davis said. People do have ways of communicating how much pain they're feeling; for example, doctors often ask people to rate their pain on a scale of 1 to 10. But the experience of pain is fundamentally subjective, Davis said. In other words, what might be very painful to one person may cause very little pain to someone else.


                    You probably never feel pain, Jimmy, cause Dr Davis indicates a brain is necessary.

                    "Pain occurs in [the] brain," Davis said.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      And, from one of your pro-abortion heroes...

                      The problem with pain

                      One reason the question of fetal pain is so controversial is because pain is always a subjective experience, said Dr. Anne Davis, an OB/GYN and the consulting medical director for Physicians for Reproductive Health. Davis is an abortion provider.

                      Unlike with blood pressure or body temperature, for example, there's no definitive way to measure pain, Davis said. People do have ways of communicating how much pain they're feeling; for example, doctors often ask people to rate their pain on a scale of 1 to 10. But the experience of pain is fundamentally subjective, Davis said. In other words, what might be very painful to one person may cause very little pain to someone else.


                      You probably never feel pain, Jimmy, cause Dr Davis indicates a brain is necessary.
                      Dr Davis is not talking science, and the science says that the nervous system necessary for the experience of pain is not developed until at least the 28th week, the third trimester.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Dr Davis is not talking science, and the science says that the nervous system necessary for the experience of pain is not developed until at least the 28th week, the third trimester.
                        That's one opinion, but there are many others. You can't just pick the 'science' you like, and ignore all others.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • From Neurology Today...

                          FETAL PAIN EXPERT DISAGREES WITH STUDY

                          One expert on fetal pain, however, disagrees. Kanwaljeet S. Anand, MD, Professor of Pediatrics, Anesthesiology, Pharmacology, and Neurobiology at the University of Arkansas, asserts the human fetus can experience pain from at least 20 weeks after conception. The “gate theory” of pain first proposed in 1965 by psychologist Ronald Melzack and anatomist Patrick Wall, he contends, demonstrates that pain signals on their way to the brain produce the perception of pain even before they reach the cerebral cortex (Science 1965; 150:971–979).


                          And he wears a turban, so he's more righter!!!

                          anand.jpeg
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            From Neurology Today...

                            FETAL PAIN EXPERT DISAGREES WITH STUDY

                            One expert on fetal pain, however, disagrees. Kanwaljeet S. Anand, MD, Professor of Pediatrics, Anesthesiology, Pharmacology, and Neurobiology at the University of Arkansas, asserts the human fetus can experience pain from at least 20 weeks after conception. The “gate theory” of pain first proposed in 1965 by psychologist Ronald Melzack and anatomist Patrick Wall, he contends, demonstrates that pain signals on their way to the brain produce the perception of pain even before they reach the cerebral cortex (Science 1965; 150:971–979).


                            And he wears a turban, so he's more righter!!!

                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]37920[/ATTACH]
                            So, he disagrees with your other source who says that pain occurs in the developed brain. Besides that, 20 weeks is still the 2nd trimester and 90 something percent of abortions take place in the first trimester. Most abortions in the 2nd and 3rd trimesters are due to health concerns of the woman.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              You are talking about legality, we are talking about motivation. Two different things.
                              Motivation is none of your business during the first trimester, when the choice is the woman’s.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                                Is that a fact?


                                The old, uninformed notions that unborn and newborn babies could not feel pain are refuted by a growing body of scientific evidence. The published scientific literature shows that unborn babies can experience pain at 20 weeks gestational age (20 weeks LMP, since Last Menstrual Period, the fetal age estimate used by most obstetricians) or earlier.
                                The above is confirmed by Kanwaljeet Anand, a professor of pediatrics, anesthesiology and neurobiology at the University of Tennessee Health Science Center. Anand's research reveals that pain may indeed occur in a fetus, through other neurobiological mechanisms than in an adult, at 20 weeks post-fertilization (and possibly before that) directly challenging the 2010 report from the British Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) that since "connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation and, as most neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception, it can be concluded that the fetus cannot experience pain in any sense prior to this gestation."

                                Please note that the RCOG's findings themselves question the 30 weeks claim.

                                And then there is this:

                                Source: Expert Tells Congress Unborn Babies Can Feel Pain Starting at 8 Weeks



                                During a hearing on a bill that would ban late-term abortions nationwide, an expert on human embryonic development informed members of the committee that unborn babies have the capacity to feel pain as early as 8 weeks.

                                Maureen Condic, Ph.D. is an Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah and obtained her Ph.D. from University of California, Berkeley. She is a widely published scientist whose works have appeared in a wide variety of peer-reviewed journals.

                                “The earliest “rudiment” of the human nervous system forms by 28 days (four weeks) after sperm – egg fusion. At this stage, the primitive brain is already “patterned”; i.e. cells in different regions are specified to produce structures appropriate to their location in the nervous system as a whole,” she told lawmakers.

                                Knowing the unborn child feels pain early in pregnancy, Condic says the question is what to do then.

                                “Imposing pain on any pain-capable living creature is cruelty. And ignoring the pain experienced by another human individual for any reason is barbaric. We don’t need to know if a human fetus is self- reflective or even self- aware to afford it the same consideration we currently afford other pain – capable species. We simply have to decide whether we will choose to ignore the pain of the fetus or not,” she concludes.

                                Read Dr. Condic’s full testimony at http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/...2005232013.pdf



                                Source

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                And the article continues at the above link.



                                The point being, it is anything but cut and dry.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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