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Thread: Joe Biden, Me Too..

  1. #361
    tWebber Sea of red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    The fact that he has stuck to those positions since getting elected and didn't abandon them once he moved into the White House is compelling evidence that he had a true conversion.
    Whatever you want to believe dude.

    The guy was ready to abandon the wall and get onboard gun control, until the base sent his approval numbers plummeting.

  2. #362
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea of red View Post
    It's just as bad inside the GOP.
    Which brings us back to my original statement:

    I don't think that either party represents the mainstream social views of America


    Quote Originally Posted by Sea of red View Post
    Moore was supported by Trump to the very end, and most Republicans still voted for him, too. King was known to be a racist scumbag for years, but he was only punished when the media focused on a few of his comments.
    At least with the Republicans they pretty much stripped King of his seniority and power whereas the Democrats keep circling the wagons around their haters, attacking anyone with the temerity to point out some of their vileness and brazenly pretending it doesn't exist.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  3. #363
    tWebber Sea of red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It's almost like there's politics involved.
    Of course.

    As much crap as politicians get, you have to blame the voters for having such unreasonable demands.

    Alright, blokes, I'm gone. My car is finally ready. I've been waiting in a repair shop.

    It's been real.


  4. #364
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea of red View Post
    Of course.

    As much crap as politicians get, you have to blame the voters for having such unreasonable demands.

    Alright, blokes, I'm gone. My car is finally ready. I've been waiting in a repair shop.

    It's been real.

    And off he goes - a fiery horse with a speed of light, a cloud of dust, and a hearty ‘Hi-Yo, Silver!’
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  5. #365
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea of red View Post
    There's also not many Americans that want Roe overturned, the transgendered to be banned from the military, for the drug war to continue, for a wall to be built, or for current gun laws to remain stagnant, but that hasn't stopped the Republicans any.
    The question of how many people want Roe v. Wade overturned is an odd one. When asked directly whether they want it overturned the numbers aren't that high, but from what I can tell a good chunk of those who say they're against an overturn are in favor of abortion restrictions that Roe v. Wade claims are unconstitutional. I wonder what the numbers would be if everyone was properly educated as to the specifics of what is and isn't prohibited by Roe v. Wade (or perhaps more accurately Planned Parenthood v. Casey, which modified Roe v. Wade a little).

  6. #366
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    The question of how many people want Roe v. Wade overturned is an odd one. When asked directly whether they want it overturned the numbers aren't that high, but from what I can tell a good chunk of those who say they're against an overturn are in favor of abortion restrictions that Roe v. Wade claims are unconstitutional. I wonder what the numbers would be if everyone was properly educated as to the specifics of what is and isn't prohibited by Roe v. Wade (or perhaps more accurately Planned Parenthood v. Casey, which modified Roe v. Wade a little).
    I think most agree that Roe v Wade (and the Casey modification) gets the balance right between the rights of the woman and rights of the fetus.

    “The SCOTUS attempted to balance the state’s distinct compelling interests in the health of pregnant women and in the potential life of fetuses. It placed the point after which a state’s compelling interest in the pregnant woman’s health would allow it to regulate abortion “at approximately the end of the first trimester” of pregnancy. With regard to the fetus, the court located that point at “capability of meaningful life outside the mother’s womb,” or viability”.

    https://www.britannica.com/event/Roe-v-Wade
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  7. #367
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    I think most agree that Roe v Wade (and the Casey modification) gets the balance right between the rights of the woman and rights of the fetus.
    And you would be wrong. Poll after poll reveals that while the majority of Americans don't want abortion completely outlawed (the part of these polls that the MSM reports on), they also show that they want tighter restrictions than what we have under Roe and Casey (the part of the polls that the MSM typically leaves out).

    For example, the annual NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll on abortion, consistently shows that even among those who self-identify as "pro-choice" over 60% of them want abortion restricted to the first three months (first trimester). Among Americans overall, three-quarters of us want that or even more.

    Moreover, nearly two-thirds of all Americans say they want the Supreme Court to revisit Roe in a substantial way.

    And when Roe is not mentioned in the polling the numbers are even more eye-opening. Last years Gallup poll found that 53% want abortion to be illegal in all or most circumstances. In fact, since 1994 when Gallup started annual tracking of attitudes toward abortion the combined percentage of people who said they believe abortion should be illegal in "all circumstances" or legal "only in a few circumstances" has exceeded 50% every time.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  8. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  9. #368
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    And you would be wrong. Poll after poll reveals that while the majority of Americans don't want abortion completely outlawed (the part of these polls that the MSM reports on), they also show that they want tighter restrictions than what we have under Roe and Casey (the part of the polls that the MSM typically leaves out).

    For example, the annual NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll on abortion, consistently shows that even among those who self-identify as "pro-choice" over 60% of them want abortion restricted to the first three months (first trimester). Among Americans overall, three-quarters of us want that or even more.

    Moreover, nearly two-thirds of all Americans say they want the Supreme Court to revisit Roe in a substantial way.

    And when Roe is not mentioned in the polling the numbers are even more eye-opening. Last years Gallup poll found that 53% want abortion to be illegal in all or most circumstances. In fact, since 1994 when Gallup started annual tracking of attitudes toward abortion the combined percentage of people who said they believe abortion should be illegal in "all circumstances" or legal "only in a few circumstances" has exceeded 50% every time.
    I wonder what the polling would be if you included only people who had actually seen an early stage sonogram of a developing unborn baby. Or, better yet, actually witnessed an abortion. In other words, something akin to "an informed electorate".
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  10. #369
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    And you would be wrong. Poll after poll reveals that while the majority of Americans don't want abortion completely outlawed (the part of these polls that the MSM reports on), they also show that they want tighter restrictions than what we have under Roe and Casey (the part of the polls that the MSM typically leaves out).

    For example, the annual NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll on abortion, consistently shows that even among those who self-identify as "pro-choice" over 60% of them want abortion restricted to the first three months (first trimester). Among Americans overall, three-quarters of us want that or even more.

    Moreover, nearly two-thirds of all Americans say they want the Supreme Court to revisit Roe in a substantial way.

    And when Roe is not mentioned in the polling the numbers are even more eye-opening. Last years Gallup poll found that 53% want abortion to be illegal in all or most circumstances. In fact, since 1994 when Gallup started annual tracking of attitudes toward abortion the combined percentage of people who said they believe abortion should be illegal in "all circumstances" or legal "only in a few circumstances" has exceeded 50% every time.
    Yes there are substantial partisan and ideological divides on abortion but overall: “About six-in-ten U.S. adults (58%) said in a 2018 survey that abortion should be legal in all or most cases, compared with 37% who said it should be illegal all or most of the time. Public opinion on this question has been relatively stable over more than two decades of Pew Research Center polling”.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...te-in-america/
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  11. #370
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    I think most agree that Roe v Wade (and the Casey modification) gets the balance right between the rights of the woman and rights of the fetus.

    “The SCOTUS attempted to balance the state’s distinct compelling interests in the health of pregnant women and in the potential life of fetuses. It placed the point after which a state’s compelling interest in the pregnant woman’s health would allow it to regulate abortion “at approximately the end of the first trimester” of pregnancy. With regard to the fetus, the court located that point at “capability of meaningful life outside the mother’s womb,” or viability”.

    https://www.britannica.com/event/Roe-v-Wade
    Except the "balance" attempted was the state's interest in health/potential life against... nothing. What "right" of the woman was being removed? The prohibition of abortion is a prohibition of a medical procedure; the government puts all kinds of restrictions, regulations, or even prohibitions on those. If the government can't prohibit abortion, then it logically should be equally unable to ban the use of cocaine. So the Supreme Court simply invented a right (which it doesn't even apply consistently), then claimed this invented right (a right that, as John Hart Ely points out, is "not inferable from the language of the Constitution, the framers' thinking respecting the specific problem in issue, any general value derivable from the provisions they included, or the nation's governmental structure.") was somehow so powerful that it removed the government's ability to regulate abortion to any practical effect.

    Again, I cannot recommend John Hart Ely's "The Wages of Crying Wolf" article enough for explaining the astounding extent to which Roe v. Wade "is bad because it is bad constitutional law, or rather because it is not constitutional law and gives almost no sense of an obligation to try to be." And, as I have said before and will note again, John Hart Ely was pro-choice.

    If we're going to make up rights out of nowhere, let's go the full route and return to the Lochner era and enforce freedom of contract. Under freedom of contract, minimum wage laws are unconstitutional, laws setting maximum work hours are unconstitutional, and employment discrimination laws are unconstitutional. Let's knock them all down! It's certainly a right no less supported by the Constitution than the right asserted in Roe v. Wade.

    Certainly, someone can argue that Roe v. Wade/Planned Parenthood v. Casey, from a policy standpoint, hit the right balance. But deciding policy is not the job of the court system. The court system, when it comes to judicial review, simply has the job to determine whether a particular law is constitutional or not, not whether it was wise policy or not. And the Constitution is simply silent on the subject. "The Constitution has little to say about contract, less about abortion, and those who would speculate about which the framers would have been more likely to protect may not be pleased with the answer." (John Hart Ely again)

    And even if the argument is that the SCOTUS's decision matches up with society's thoughts on the issue, that argument is self-refuting. If society was so OK with allowing abortions, there should be no problem with overturning Roe v. Wade. After all, society would simply allow the applicable access to abortion required by Roe v. Wade without the decision, right? So there's no need for the decision.

  12. Amen MaxVel amen'd this post.

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