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Thread: A Superbly Flawed Quran..

  1. #41
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    The same accusations u alleged about Christianity can very well be levelled upon islam and the Quran with 100% justification, siam.
    It's quite duplicitous and hypocritical of you to condemn what u label as "Christianity and it's value judgements.." and not to be used as "some default blueprint for non-Christian traditions."
    You are making rather baseless but fanatical accusations against scholars who are not even Christians and against the Christian faith itself.
    When it is a lot more worse in Islam, which only emerged 700 years after Christianity, while pre-islamic Christians had no knowledge of muhamad's religion in their times.
    Through the koran's many polemical attacks and anti-Christian statements, it spews its intolerance and vehement xenophobia against both orthodox and heterodox Christianity at the relevant time.
    Sura 6/101 - "How can God have a Son when he doesn't have a wife."
    Sura 18/4 - Muhamed was on a mission in this world to "warn those who say that God has a Son."
    Sura 72/3 - Allah has not taken " a wife not a son," and that the foolish people say (believe) so. They - are labelled as - are foolish, exaggerators and blasphemors!
    WHO are the ones who predominantly declare their belief that Jesus is the Son of God in muhamad's time?
    Christians of course! Even mohd was fully into this and discussed this particular topic with the Christians visiting from Najran - the Son of God. Sura 3: 45 - 65.
    Then, sura 5/116 - the gross misrepresention of the Holy Trinity. As "Father, Mother and Son" gods.
    Sura 61/6 - claiming that mohd or "ahmad" was supposedly mentioned in the Bible/Gospel.
    When muslims or mohd could not prove that, the "People of the Book" - Christians and Jews were blatantly accused of "changing the scriptures" - sura 2/79, like for instance, removing references to muhamed in the Bible!
    (Actually, there is absolutely nothing in both the OT or the NT that refers to Muhamed either directly or indirectly!)
    Truth be told, all the above are just some of the polemical value judgments that islam, then Koran and obviously, muslims themselves follow and on many occasions and regularly vilify both Christianity and Christians.
    Causing muslims to view us, the Bible and the canonical Gospels with prejudice, baseless suspicions and with bad jaundiced eyes.
    Your claim that so-called Christian scholars adhering to "prejudice, often called Orientalism" towards non-western ideas is disingenuous and is only a red herring.
    Because common muslims themselves - not just the islamic scholars or muallims, are brainwashed every day by the verses from the quran like the ones above.
    That is prejudice of the worst kind. Emanating from the grassroots and poisoning the minds of lay muslims from a very early age. And pre-judging Christians and Biblical Christianity from the poisoned source - the Koran.
    Toxic prejudice is bad and all humanity suffers from it---in our times Religio-Nationalism/patriotism has caused much damage to humanity---for example the Burmese (Buddhist) genocide against the Rohingya peoples.
    Christianity is also made up of human beings and abuse has occurred---for example the accusation of deicide (killing God) against the Jews....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_deicide
    ...deicide is a belief held by some Christians that the Jewish people as a whole were responsible for the death of Jesus.[1] The antisemitic slur "Christ-killer" was used by mobs to incite violence against Jews and contributed to many centuries of pogroms, the murder of Jews during the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust.[2]

    In the catechism produced by the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church affirmed that the collectivity of sinful humanity was responsible for the death of Jesus, not only the Jews.[3] In the deliberations of the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Paul VI repudiated belief in collective Jewish guilt for the crucifixion of Jesus.[4] It declared that the accusation could not be made "against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today".

    However, I was not speaking of Toxic prejudice in general---but Christian standards used for the validation of the New Testament such as Foretelling and history---should not be used for other Non-Christian traditions.

    For the Christian---it might seem that the whole world revolves around them and therefore all Scripture must necessarily speak for or against "the Christian"----but let me explain to you once again---The Quran is about Islam---NOT Christianity.
    It is explaining the parameters of its main "tenet" ---One God---which to a Muslim means there are no other Gods---including Jesus. That is what One God means.

    Jews, Christians and other theists were "Protected peoples" under Islamic law and were were not only allowed to follow their own religious beliefs but also allowed to have their own court systems and laws.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtiname_of_Muhammad
    The Ashtiname of Muhammad, also known as the Covenant or Testament (Testamentum) of Muhammad (the Islamic Prophet), is a document which is a charter or writ ratified by the Islamic Prophet Muhammad granting protection and other privileges to the followers of Jesus the Nazarene, given to the Christian monks of Saint Catherine's Monastery. It is sealed with an imprint representing Muhammad's hand.[1]

    Āshtīnāmeh (IPA: [ɒʃtinɒme]) is a Persian word meaning "Book of Peace", a Persian term for a treaty and covenant.[2]

  2. #42
    tWebber
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    Your continual whining and complaining about the so-called prejudiced western-Christian scholarship standards won't go anywhere, because it is only in your own prejudiced imagination.

    It is not just about fulfilled prophecy but historical facts that can be objectively verified in the chronology of time, like the crucifixion of Jesus Christ that happened 2,000 years ago. Which the Quran ignominiously denies, proving that the Quran is more fiction than fact.

    Take your complaints to the proper scholarly and academic forums - not this one, and see if they concur with the preconceptions you hold?

    One such forum is the QuranGate forum described here:
    https://youtu.be/cjWfusEwLa4

    It comprises of both Christian and Muslim academics and scholars. These true academics are not in opposition to each other nor do the muslim scholars accuse their Christian counterparts of "prejudice" but actually collaborate together to critically analyse the Quran!

    QuranGate's Council of Reference comprises both of credentialed and highly qualified Christian and Muslim scholars who respect, collaborate and develop critical studies of the Quran together - https://info.qurangateway.org/advisory-council/

    You will do well to learn from them, siam instead of constantly promoting your baseless complaints of so-called "western prejudice"!

    Remember, such prejudice goes both ways and plenty of it comes from the Quran and islam too, to blind millions of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Toxic prejudice is bad and all humanity suffers from it---in our times Religio-Nationalism/patriotism has caused much damage to humanity---for example the Burmese (Buddhist) genocide against the Rohingya peoples.
    Christianity is also made up of human beings and abuse has occurred---for example the accusation of deicide (killing God) against the Jews....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_deicide
    ...deicide is a belief held by some Christians that the Jewish people as a whole were responsible for the death of Jesus.[1] The antisemitic slur "Christ-killer" was used by mobs to incite violence against Jews and contributed to many centuries of pogroms, the murder of Jews during the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust.[2]

    In the catechism produced by the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church affirmed that the collectivity of sinful humanity was responsible for the death of Jesus, not only the Jews.[3] In the deliberations of the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Paul VI repudiated belief in collective Jewish guilt for the crucifixion of Jesus.[4] It declared that the accusation could not be made "against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today".

    However, I was not speaking of Toxic prejudice in general---but Christian standards used for the validation of the New Testament such as Foretelling and history---should not be used for other Non-Christian traditions.

    For the Christian---it might seem that the whole world revolves around them and therefore all Scripture must necessarily speak for or against "the Christian"----but let me explain to you once again---The Quran is about Islam---NOT Christianity.
    It is explaining the parameters of its main "tenet" ---One God---which to a Muslim means there are no other Gods---including Jesus. That is what One God means.

    Jews, Christians and other theists were "Protected peoples" under Islamic law and were were not only allowed to follow their own religious beliefs but also allowed to have their own court systems and laws.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtiname_of_Muhammad
    The Ashtiname of Muhammad, also known as the Covenant or Testament (Testamentum) of Muhammad (the Islamic Prophet), is a document which is a charter or writ ratified by the Islamic Prophet Muhammad granting protection and other privileges to the followers of Jesus the Nazarene, given to the Christian monks of Saint Catherine's Monastery. It is sealed with an imprint representing Muhammad's hand.[1]

    Āshtīnāmeh (IPA: [ɒʃtinɒme]) is a Persian word meaning "Book of Peace", a Persian term for a treaty and covenant.[2]

  3. #43
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    1)... prejudiced western-Christian scholarship standards won't go anywhere, because it is only in your own prejudiced imagination.

    2)It is not just about fulfilled prophecy but historical facts that can be objectively verified in the chronology of time, like the crucifixion of Jesus Christ that happened 2,000 years ago. Which the Quran ignominiously denies, proving that the Quran is more fiction than fact.

    ....

    One such forum is the QuranGate forum described here:
    https://youtu.be/cjWfusEwLa4

    3) It comprises of both Christian and Muslim academics and scholars. These true academics are not in opposition to each other nor do the muslim scholars accuse their Christian counterparts of "prejudice" but actually collaborate together to critically analyse the Quran!

    1) "Orientalism" as a cultural/academic bias/prejudice was highlighted by Edward Said.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said
    As a cultural critic, Said is known for the book Orientalism (1978), a critique of the cultural representations that are the bases of Orientalism—how the Western world perceives the Orient.[5][6][7][8] Said's model of textual analysis transformed the academic discourse of researchers in literary theory, literary criticism, and Middle-Eastern studies—how academics examine, describe, and define the cultures being studied.[9][10] As a foundational text, Orientalism was controversial among scholars of Oriental Studies, philosophy, and literature.[11][4]

    Orientalism names/defines the cultural bias that underlies Western assumptions of the Non-West
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_bias
    Cultural bias is the phenomenon of interpreting and judging phenomena by standards inherent to one's own culture. The phenomenon is sometimes considered a problem central to social and human sciences, such as economics, psychology, anthropology, and sociology. Some practitioners of the aforementioned fields have attempted to develop methods and theories to compensate for or eliminate cultural bias.

    Cultural bias occurs when people of a culture make assumptions about conventions, including conventions of language, notation, proof and evidence. They are then accused of mistaking these assumptions for laws of logic or nature. Numerous such biases exist, concerning cultural norms for color, mate selection, concepts of justice, linguistic and logical validity, the acceptability of evidence, and taboos.


    2) Perceptions are subjective---Should I call you prejudiced because you do not believe in Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)?
    Theologically, it makes little difference in Islam who was or was not crucified since the event (or lack of) holds no meaning within the Islamic paradigm. The meaning and importance of crucifixion only makes sense within the Christian paradigm with its presumption of original sin...etc.... So the Quran's explanation of the crucifixion is somewhat of a sidenote....for Muslims.


    3) digitizing the Quran--- I have heard Muslims have already developed this and played with it---but the focus is on Muslim interests which may not be the same as non-Muslim interests so its good another database is made for non-Muslims to play with....

    Here is another co-operative study by Christians and Muslims---
    https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu...ridges-seminar
    Last edited by siam; 09-13-2019 at 10:07 PM.

  4. #44
    tWebber
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    Of course I do not believe in ur "prophet" muhamed, I actually consider him a blatant & ruthless false prophet who misled millions of unsuspecting victims away from the truth.

    If Jesus Christ did instruct His followers to expect muhameds coming and "foretold His coming" 700 years later, that's a different story. That was actually the claim of the koran which you can stupendously find in sura 61/6, and other verses too.

    But muslims are forced to engage in every kind of scripture twisting and polemics against the Christian Bible to foist the koran's false and desperate theories and biases that Muhamed was so-called "prophesied by Jesus Christ to come after Him"!

    Such misinterpretation and misrepresention by the ridiculous claims of the Koran does serious violence against the Bible and the original and authentic teachings of Jesus Christ. All based on muhameds and Koranic prejudice, pre-conceived ideas and baseless presuppositions alone.

    The QuranGate platform is embraced by BOTH Muslims and Christians alike. And the endorsement comes from both Christian AND Muslim scholars. Even though originally mooted and initiated by Christian researchers of the Koran, none of the muslim counterparts ever accused the Christians of Orientalism or prejudice.

    When in fact the very opposite was true. Both groups collaborate and work together without the suspicions or antagonism you insinuate. In the name of objective, historical and critical analysis of the Koran, unpolluted by either of the Christian or Muslim "interests" that u are disingenuously accusing.

    This debunks your narrow, prejudiced claim of a 'sinister Christian agenda' or interests in critically analysing the koran u constantly peddle.




    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    1) "Orientalism" as a cultural/academic bias/prejudice was highlighted by Edward Said.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said
    As a cultural critic, Said is known for the book Orientalism (1978), a critique of the cultural representations that are the bases of Orientalism—how the Western world perceives the Orient.[5][6][7][8] Said's model of textual analysis transformed the academic discourse of researchers in literary theory, literary criticism, and Middle-Eastern studies—how academics examine, describe, and define the cultures being studied.[9][10] As a foundational text, Orientalism was controversial among scholars of Oriental Studies, philosophy, and literature.[11][4]

    Orientalism names/defines the cultural bias that underlies Western assumptions of the Non-West
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_bias
    Cultural bias is the phenomenon of interpreting and judging phenomena by standards inherent to one's own culture. The phenomenon is sometimes considered a problem central to social and human sciences, such as economics, psychology, anthropology, and sociology. Some practitioners of the aforementioned fields have attempted to develop methods and theories to compensate for or eliminate cultural bias.

    Cultural bias occurs when people of a culture make assumptions about conventions, including conventions of language, notation, proof and evidence. They are then accused of mistaking these assumptions for laws of logic or nature. Numerous such biases exist, concerning cultural norms for color, mate selection, concepts of justice, linguistic and logical validity, the acceptability of evidence, and taboos.


    2) Perceptions are subjective---Should I call you prejudiced because you do not believe in Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)?
    Theologically, it makes little difference in Islam who was or was not crucified since the event (or lack of) holds no meaning within the Islamic paradigm. The meaning and importance of crucifixion only makes sense within the Christian paradigm with its presumption of original sin...etc.... So the Quran's explanation of the crucifixion is somewhat of a sidenote....for Muslims.


    3) digitizing the Quran--- I have heard Muslims have already developed this and played with it---but the focus is on Muslim interests which may not be the same as non-Muslim interests so its good another database is made for non-Muslims to play with....

    Here is another co-operative study by Christians and Muslims---
    https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu...ridges-seminar

  5. #45
    tWebber
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    Cultural bias is an actual phenomenon and for a long time there was a presumption among Western Academia that their methods of knowledge production were "neutral" and their presumptions "universal". But bias effects all human beings---we do not need to "get rid" of bias---because this is an inherent trait---rather, we have to be aware and transparent of our biases.

    Biases can create diversity of perspectives and when we acknowledge each others biases, yet co-operate in research and knowledge production, then we contribute to a more wholistic/transparent understanding and knowledge production.
    however, unacknowledged biases can lead to shoddy research and incorrect presumptions---which in turn leads to misinformation. Such contributions damage, not enhance, our understanding and knowledge.

    Your perspective is one way to look at Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Another way is (as the Quran explains) he was sent to peoples who had not received the message of One God before. He brought many peoples to monotheism that previously had not understood this concept. Christianity is just too complicated to understand. This can turn away some people such as myself. Compared to the Bible, the Quran is a much thinner book---its theology begins and ends with---(Tawheed) There is One God, and no other God besides it. (Shema = the LORD our God, the LORD is one---Judaism). Apart from the sections about the existence of the resurrection/judgement/heaven and hell...the Quran mostly consists of ethico-moral principles on a variety of subjects.

  6. #46
    tWebber
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    It is very clear to all now, siam, that muslims like you obviously do not believe in Islam because of the facts, but despite of the "facts" not being facts and are actually baseless concepts, ideas and presuppositions, that really, are ahistorical and cannot be proven historically.

    Neither the Christians, Jews or the Bible conjured up the teaching of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago. Rather it is due to the actual death of Jesus by crucifixion that occurred 2,000 years ago as an incontrovertible historical fact that has been verified by historians, archaeological research and scholars, that became the basis for the mission of Christ as articulated by Himself in the Gospel.

    That theological premise was based on the actual life, teachings and verifiable events of Jesus Christ, & not the other way around. No reputable scholar today ever denies that Jesus Christ or Yeshua Hamaschiah in the Hebrew language, was the one crucified outside Jerusalem under the Roman leader Pontius Pilate at the instigation of Jewish religious leaders 2,000 years ago!

    The truth of the crucifixion of Jesus is because it actually happened as an event of history. Not vice versa. For islam and the Koran to deny and ignore that event, only serves to show its interest in fictional myths and baseless fantasies to prop up its polemics, presuppositions and religious teachings which I will add, it is reluctant and unable to verify with objective facts. You dismiss any further enquiry with the Arabic magic formula "walahuallam" or "God knows best"!

    I asked you previously twice, about the koran's story about Dhulqarnyn building an iron or brass wall in the mountains to prevent Gog and Magog passing through but you never answered the question or even addressed it.

    Likewise I asked about the Koran's claims about the production of sperm in the human body - which many readers are doubtful about, again you ignored the question. If the Koran is as you claim, not a book of science or history etc, then why does it talk about sperm production, Dhulqarnyn and the place of the "setting sun" as if it was an authority?

    Many people actually find those polemics and statements of the Koran very amusing and laughable.













    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post




    Cultural bias is an actual phenomenon and for a long time there was a presumption among Western Academia that their methods of knowledge production were "neutral" and their presumptions "universal". But bias effects all human beings---we do not need to "get rid" of bias---because this is an inherent trait---rather, we have to be aware and transparent of our biases.

    Biases can create diversity of perspectives and when we acknowledge each others biases, yet co-operate in research and knowledge production, then we contribute to a more wholistic/transparent understanding and knowledge production.
    however, unacknowledged biases can lead to shoddy research and incorrect presumptions---which in turn leads to misinformation. Such contributions damage, not enhance, our understanding and knowledge.

    Your perspective is one way to look at Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Another way is (as the Quran explains) he was sent to peoples who had not received the message of One God before. He brought many peoples to monotheism that previously had not understood this concept. Christianity is just too complicated to understand. This can turn away some people such as myself. Compared to the Bible, the Quran is a much thinner book---its theology begins and ends with---(Tawheed) There is One God, and no other God besides it. (Shema = the LORD our God, the LORD is one---Judaism). Apart from the sections about the existence of the resurrection/judgement/heaven and hell...the Quran mostly consists of ethico-moral principles on a variety of subjects.

  7. #47
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    1) It is very clear to all now, siam, that muslims like you obviously do not believe in Islam because of the facts, but despite of the "facts" not being facts and are actually baseless concepts, ideas and presuppositions, that really, are ahistorical and cannot be proven historically.
    Neither the Christians, Jews or the Bible conjured up the teaching of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago. Rather it is due to the actual death of Jesus by crucifixion that occurred 2,000 years ago as an incontrovertible historical fact that has been verified by historians, archaeological research and scholars, that became the basis for the mission of Christ as articulated by Himself in the Gospel.
    That theological premise was based on the actual life, teachings and verifiable events of Jesus Christ, & not the other way around. No reputable scholar today ever denies that Jesus Christ or Yeshua Hamaschiah in the Hebrew language, was the one crucified outside Jerusalem under the Roman leader Pontius Pilate at the instigation of Jewish religious leaders 2,000 years ago!
    The truth of the crucifixion of Jesus is because it actually happened as an event of history. Not vice versa. For islam and the Koran to deny and ignore that event, only serves to show its interest in fictional myths and baseless fantasies to prop up its polemics, presuppositions and religious teachings which I will add, it is reluctant and unable to verify with objective facts. You dismiss any further enquiry with the Arabic magic formula "walahuallam" or "God knows best"!

    2) I asked you previously twice, about the koran's story about Dhulqarnyn building an iron or brass wall in the mountains to prevent Gog and Magog passing through but you never answered the question or even addressed it.

    Likewise I asked about the Koran's claims about the production of sperm in the human body - which many readers are doubtful about, again you ignored the question. If the Koran is as you claim, not a book of science or history etc, then why does it talk about sperm production, Dhulqarnyn and the place of the "setting sun" as if it was an authority?

    Many people actually find those polemics and statements of the Koran very amusing and laughable.
    1) Crucifixion---If I were to concede that a crucifixion occurred and it appeared that Jesus son of Mary was crucified---it still would not make any difference as this event holds no meaning within Islamic theology.
    Yes---Christians have their own interpretation of the teachings of Jesus, son of Mary---but they are far too complicated for me to understand---that is why I am not a Christian and never will be.
    If you insist that crucifixion is a fact---then fine...that is YOUR belief, and a necessary one for your theology to work. It is not a necessary belief for Jews or Muslims for their theology to work. We do not require a crucifixion.
    It was also not a necessary belief of non-mainstream Christians that predate Islam. Some of whom also believed that it was not Jesus, son of Mary who was crucified.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami...Jesus%27_death

    2) Dul Qurnayn
    Dhul-Qarnayn exemplifies other good leadership qualities in his dealings with a nation being terrorized by the monsters Gog and Magog (N.B.: these monsters are also referenced in the biblical books of Ezekiel and Revelation). First, when the people offer Dhul-Qarnayn tribute in exchange for helping them, he responds that God’s rewards are better than earthly ones. He exhibits self-restraint and does not succumb to greed. Since God has already blessed him with a powerful kingdom, Dhul-Qarnayn considers the tribute unnecessary and decides to help this nation solely due to his sense of justice. However, Dhul-Qarnayn motivates the people to help themselves rather than allowing them to accept a handout. While he supplies the technical expertise necessary to forge a barrier preventing the entry of Gog and Magog, he instructs the people to bring their own raw materials and aid in the construction. In this way, Dhul-Qarnayn models the importance of collective action in tackling nationwide problems. In the modern world, it is clear that governments are not the solution to all societal ills; instead, people from all walks of life must work together to resolve these issues. Politicians may be necessary to supply the required leadership or expertise, but in many cases, the will of a nation’s people will dictate an initiative’s success or failure.
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dhul-...ader_b_3299625

    The Quran tries to lay out ethico-moral principles and stories are a tool it uses to demonstrate such principles. In western (socio-politial) philosophy, the individual is the unit of measure (rights/responsibilities)....but in Islamic ethico-moral paradigm, rights and responsibilities are applicable to both the individual and the collective. The individual makes the existence of the collective possible but the collective makes the survival of the individual possible. That is why rights and responsibilities are allocated to both spheres.

    ---Interactive Quran.
    The revelation of the Quran was mostly a public event. As revelation occurred, people listened to it in real-time. This led to discussions and questions. The Quran answers some of these questions and gives guidance to some of the discussions. But because the questions and discussions are not repeated in the Quran (except on some occasions)...it becomes part of the "narrative". The purpose of the Quran is to give guidance to humanity and its primary message is to persuade towards One God. The Concept of One God underlies its ethico-moral philosophy and principles. That is why it is essential to properly understand this paradigm (One God).

  8. #48
    tWebber
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    Yes, and I understand your use of the term "complicated" to mean "doesn't make sense" or "unintelligible".

    Your insinuations against the Gospel and Christ's teachings are clearly presuppositional and prejudicial and preclude factual reasons.

    In fact, the Koran is so uncomplicated, that it claims Allah directed Dhulqarnyn or Zulqarnyn to build a wall of iron in some mountains to stop Gog and Magog passing through, some muslims even claim this person was Alexander the Great. Only thing is Alexander was never known to be a Muslim and worse still, was never devout and never built a wall on any mountain. Find this koranic "wall" for us, siam.

    The exposure and refutation of this joke of a legend in your Koran is found here:

    https://www.answering-islam.org/Auth...wton/gate.html

    Siam says the Koran is not a science or history book, but sura 86/5-7 says that the production of human sperm and semen is "proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs..".

    How uncomplicated is that? Science and biological facts debunk the Koranic claim in sura 86, and shows that the right and proper place for sperm production is in the male testicles and not in the kidney region as the verse claims! The rebuttal to this senseless Koran is found here:

    https://www.answering-islam.org/Qura...production.htm

    Clouds and Thunder. Sura 13/13 teaches muslims that thunder is an angel (!) that 'drives the clouds". And the orthodox tafsirs and muslim commentaries actually confirm & support this uncomplicated nonsense!

    No physicist or meteorologist would support the claim that thunder is driving the clouds. It is the wind that does so, and wind is caused by temperature and pressure differences (even Wikipedia clarifies this). Thunder can neither make a cloud move in any significant way nor can it stop one.

    Check out the Quran's 'thunderous facts' here: https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/thunder.htm

    Yes, it is so easy to believe in the Koran and islam, because it has no real facts to bother about. Blind faith is a very simple and uncomplicated thing..! Very useful when inventing a new religion like Islam.

    But unfortunately, it is also ridiculously comical and nonsensical. And that's among the reasons why so many Muslims are leaving and abandoning islam in record numbers today. Despite the harsh apostasy and blasphemy punishments that islamic sharia metes out on apostates-even the capital punishment of death, many Muslims have called the many bluffs of the Quran and rejected them.

    https://exmuslims.org/why-we-fight/?...SAAEgKJU_D_BwE

    https://www.ex-muslim.org.uk

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...44661.html?amp

    The "uncomplicated" beliefs and teachings of your Koran made them abandon Islam in unprecedented numbers today, siam.



    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    1) Crucifixion---If I were to concede that a crucifixion occurred and it appeared that Jesus son of Mary was crucified---it still would not make any difference as this event holds no meaning within Islamic theology.
    Yes---Christians have their own interpretation of the teachings of Jesus, son of Mary---but they are far too complicated for me to understand---that is why I am not a Christian and never will be.
    If you insist that crucifixion is a fact---then fine...that is YOUR belief, and a necessary one for your theology to work. It is not a necessary belief for Jews or Muslims for their theology to work. We do not require a crucifixion.
    It was also not a necessary belief of non-mainstream Christians that predate Islam. Some of whom also believed that it was not Jesus, son of Mary who was crucified.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami...Jesus%27_death

    2) Dul Qurnayn
    Dhul-Qarnayn exemplifies other good leadership qualities in his dealings with a nation being terrorized by the monsters Gog and Magog (N.B.: these monsters are also referenced in the biblical books of Ezekiel and Revelation). First, when the people offer Dhul-Qarnayn tribute in exchange for helping them, he responds that God’s rewards are better than earthly ones. He exhibits self-restraint and does not succumb to greed. Since God has already blessed him with a powerful kingdom, Dhul-Qarnayn considers the tribute unnecessary and decides to help this nation solely due to his sense of justice. However, Dhul-Qarnayn motivates the people to help themselves rather than allowing them to accept a handout. While he supplies the technical expertise necessary to forge a barrier preventing the entry of Gog and Magog, he instructs the people to bring their own raw materials and aid in the construction. In this way, Dhul-Qarnayn models the importance of collective action in tackling nationwide problems. In the modern world, it is clear that governments are not the solution to all societal ills; instead, people from all walks of life must work together to resolve these issues. Politicians may be necessary to supply the required leadership or expertise, but in many cases, the will of a nation’s people will dictate an initiative’s success or failure.
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dhul-...ader_b_3299625

    The Quran tries to lay out ethico-moral principles and stories are a tool it uses to demonstrate such principles. In western (socio-politial) philosophy, the individual is the unit of measure (rights/responsibilities)....but in Islamic ethico-moral paradigm, rights and responsibilities are applicable to both the individual and the collective. The individual makes the existence of the collective possible but the collective makes the survival of the individual possible. That is why rights and responsibilities are allocated to both spheres.

    ---Interactive Quran.
    The revelation of the Quran was mostly a public event. As revelation occurred, people listened to it in real-time. This led to discussions and questions. The Quran answers some of these questions and gives guidance to some of the discussions. But because the questions and discussions are not repeated in the Quran (except on some occasions)...it becomes part of the "narrative". The purpose of the Quran is to give guidance to humanity and its primary message is to persuade towards One God. The Concept of One God underlies its ethico-moral philosophy and principles. That is why it is essential to properly understand this paradigm (One God).

  9. #49
    tWebber
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    Your rejection of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ or Isa al-Masih does not by a long shot make it into a non-fact either. Just another unproven, wild idea you cling to.

    There are more than ample objective documentary and early manuscript evidence for the New Testament, that the majority of historians and reputable scholars accept on the strength of verifiable investigation that Jesus, Yeshua or Isa himself spoke of his death by execution over 2,000 years ago in Roman occupied Israel, culminating in the actual crucifixion of Christ as described in the NT and other documented eye-witness accounts.

    Whatever the Koran claims to the contrary over 700 years later, does not really matter at all, because it has no eye-witness testimony and no factual bearing on the event at the material time. Hence, the existential irrelevance of the Koran and it's claims and comments on historical events described in the Bible and other more ancient manuscripts.

    Such Koranic claims are just the reactionary polemics of Muhammad and the muslims, arising from their unfortunate misrepresentation and misinterpretations of orthodox Christianity and the absence of an Arabic translation of the Bible in muhamad's day. Other factors are the dubious islamic presuppositions and constructs like "ma'asum" (impeccability of prophets) and Muhamad as the so-called 'seal of the prophets'.

    Also the claim that the so-called "revelations sent to muhamed" were public events is doubtful. Nobody ever saw Gabriel (Jibril "the angel") giving or reciting anything to Muhamed. The hadith/sira only say that other people like his wife/wives or companions would hear him snort like a camel, snoring or lose consciousness & go to sleep while some revelations "came to him". Only Muhamed could see or hear it but no one else could. Very similar to demonic possession really.

    The "non-mainstream Christians" you cited from Wikipedia are in reality heresies and heretics who never represented the proclamation and kerygma found in the canonical New Testament and the long established orthodoxy of Christian doctrines. They're really non-Christian. Your "knowledge" of orthodox Christian tenets is really abysmal and pathetic.

    Manicheanism was never Christian but an early heresy based on Gnostic, heterodox dualism that tried to subvert the church but failed. Due to its dubious incompatibility and obvious divergence from early apostolic orthodoxy already established in the Canonical scriptures. It was never Christian by its own admission. So you just cited a red herring.

    This is not dissimilar to the Mutazilite Muslim teachings of the 8-9 centuries who denied the Koran's eternal uncreatedness, was eventually condemned by orthodox Sunnis like Ahmad Ibn Hanbal who was punished and imprisoned by them for his opposition to their "heresy". Would you consider Mutazilism or Ahmadiya Islam representative of islam?



    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    1) Crucifixion---If I were to concede that a crucifixion occurred and it appeared that Jesus son of Mary was crucified---it still would not make any difference as this event holds no meaning within Islamic theology.
    Yes---Christians have their own interpretation of the teachings of Jesus, son of Mary---but they are far too complicated for me to understand---that is why I am not a Christian and never will be.
    If you insist that crucifixion is a fact---then fine...that is YOUR belief, and a necessary one for your theology to work. It is not a necessary belief for Jews or Muslims for their theology to work. We do not require a crucifixion.
    It was also not a necessary belief of non-mainstream Christians that predate Islam. Some of whom also believed that it was not Jesus, son of Mary who was crucified.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami...Jesus%27_death

    2) Dul Qurnayn
    Dhul-Qarnayn exemplifies other good leadership qualities in his dealings with a nation being terrorized by the monsters Gog and Magog (N.B.: these monsters are also referenced in the biblical books of Ezekiel and Revelation). First, when the people offer Dhul-Qarnayn tribute in exchange for helping them, he responds that God’s rewards are better than earthly ones. He exhibits self-restraint and does not succumb to greed. Since God has already blessed him with a powerful kingdom, Dhul-Qarnayn considers the tribute unnecessary and decides to help this nation solely due to his sense of justice. However, Dhul-Qarnayn motivates the people to help themselves rather than allowing them to accept a handout. While he supplies the technical expertise necessary to forge a barrier preventing the entry of Gog and Magog, he instructs the people to bring their own raw materials and aid in the construction. In this way, Dhul-Qarnayn models the importance of collective action in tackling nationwide problems. In the modern world, it is clear that governments are not the solution to all societal ills; instead, people from all walks of life must work together to resolve these issues. Politicians may be necessary to supply the required leadership or expertise, but in many cases, the will of a nation’s people will dictate an initiative’s success or failure.
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dhul-...ader_b_3299625

    The Quran tries to lay out ethico-moral principles and stories are a tool it uses to demonstrate such principles. In western (socio-politial) philosophy, the individual is the unit of measure (rights/responsibilities)....but in Islamic ethico-moral paradigm, rights and responsibilities are applicable to both the individual and the collective. The individual makes the existence of the collective possible but the collective makes the survival of the individual possible. That is why rights and responsibilities are allocated to both spheres.

    ---Interactive Quran.
    The revelation of the Quran was mostly a public event. As revelation occurred, people listened to it in real-time. This led to discussions and questions. The Quran answers some of these questions and gives guidance to some of the discussions. But because the questions and discussions are not repeated in the Quran (except on some occasions)...it becomes part of the "narrative". The purpose of the Quran is to give guidance to humanity and its primary message is to persuade towards One God. The Concept of One God underlies its ethico-moral philosophy and principles. That is why it is essential to properly understand this paradigm (One God).

  10. #50
    tWebber
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    "Wild idea"---An Atheist might claim that those who believe in God are "clinging" to an unproven "wild idea" too. I believe in God, I believe the Quran is from God, I believe God would know who was or was not crucified therefore, if the Quran says the Jews did not kill Jesus, son of Mary---then I have no problems with that.
    In order to make sense of our world---we all need some starting presumptions....for example, we need to "believe" that the images/colors projected onto our brain from our eyes are what we see them to be. Optical illusions play with our eyes/brains. So...what is "real" and what is not?


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