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Thread: A Superbly Flawed Quran..

  1. #51
    tWebber
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    Quran and "mainstream" Christianity---As explained already, The main purpose of the Quran is to persuade peoples towards the concept of One God. It may dent your ego, but....the main purpose of the Quran IS NOT about addressing the concerns of "mainstream" Christianity.

    Dhul Qurnayn---as explained already, the legends of King Arthur may be based on an actual character---but they are stories. The story of Dul Qurnayn may or may not be based on an actual character---that is speculation as the Quran does not specify or name. Its a story. It may take elements---partially or wholly, from other stories/legends/myths. For example, the Bible re-uses the story of Gilgamesh for Prophet Noah.

    Science and Quran---The Quran is not a text for scientists by scientists. Among its audience are children/young adults. It explains/discusses/guides/imparts knowledge so that a "layperson" can understand. (layperson = a person without professional or specialized knowledge in a particular subject.)
    Nevertheless, the Quran encourages the pursuit of knowledge and as a result the Islamic period saw a flourishing of the sciences and of major contributions to the development of the sciences.

  2. #52
    tWebber
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    Yes, "Clinging to wild ideas" is actually perfectly appropriate to describe followers of islam, like yourself Siam.

    By basing your beliefs on presumptions and presuppositions that cannot stand the tests of scrutiny and analytical and critical inquiry and investigations-like what is found in the Quran, is sufficient proof.

    If the Koran wishes to avoid such objective investigations and checks then why does it dabble in fictional and unintelligible claims in the fields of science, history, geography etc??

    Examples already given, are like Sperm production in the kidney region of the human body, the place of the setting sun in a muddy pool of water!, a mythological wall in the mountains (possibly caucus mountains) made by a fairy tale individual, thunder in the skies driving the clouds around (the thunder are angels of God) etc...

    All of which are wild fantasies of muhammad and the writers of the Koran but are all factually wildly wrong.

    Your trying to allegorize some of the above quranic fairy tales is nothing but a cop-out and trying to sneak out through an invalid escape hatch and discredits the Koran perfectly.

    When it mentions people's names, places, parts of the body, geography, meteorology, events, phenomena and even mathematics, it invites and exposes itself to investigation for veracity, validation and factual verification.

    Why else would muslim propogandists and missionaries use those same things mentioned above to promote islam and it's "beautiful universal accuracy"? Like Harun Yahya et al.

    But when they are all disproved and debunked factually, you and your kind revert to "analogical parallelism" and shallow allegorizing, moralizing and abstract philosophising...what a hypocritical sham, siam.




    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    "Wild idea"---An Atheist might claim that those who believe in God are "clinging" to an unproven "wild idea" too. I believe in God, I believe the Quran is from God, I believe God would know who was or was not crucified therefore, if the Quran says the Jews did not kill Jesus, son of Mary---then I have no problems with that.
    In order to make sense of our world---we all need some starting presumptions....for example, we need to "believe" that the images/colors projected onto our brain from our eyes are what we see them to be. Optical illusions play with our eyes/brains. So...what is "real" and what is not?


  3. #53
    tWebber
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    You also claim that Muhammad's revelations were public knowledge and could be seen or heard by third parties around him at the time.

    But the orthodox islamic sources tell us otherwise.

    We learn from Islamic tradition that on several occasions when Muhammad saw the spirit, he would be so frightened he would run home to his wife and ask her to cover him with clothes: "I was called again and raised my head, and there on the Throne in the open atmosphere he, i.e. Gabriel (peace be upon him) was sitting. I began to tremble on account of fear. I came to Khadija and said: Wrap me up. They wrapped me up and threw water on me..." (Sahih Muslim book 1 ch.74 no.307 p.100. Narrated by Jabir)

    At other times, Muhammad experienced some strange physical symptoms. From the Hadith Mishkat, we learn that, sometimes he would shiver and swoon, roar and snort like a she-camel and white foamy saliva would spill out from his mouth (Hadith Mishkat iv p.359).

    Sometimes when he "received revelation(s) there was the sound like the buzzing of bees near his face" (source: Umar Ibnu'l Khattab), while at other times, he felt a tremendous, terrible headache.

    Muhammad once said: "At times it comes to me like the ringing of a bell and that is most severe for me... and at time an Angel in the form of a human being comes to me... (Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 28 no.5765-5767 p.1248)

    It is unclear why Mohammed later said, "...The bell is the musical instrument of Satan." Sahih Muslim vol.3 book 22 no.5279, also Abu Dawud vol.2 no.2548 -2550

    According Ahmad b. Hanbal, "He became distressed, foaming at the mouth and closing his eyes. At times he snorted like a young camel (Ahmad b. Hanbal I, 34, 464, vi.163). This gave rise to the allegation in certain quarters Muhammad was also an epileptic.

    Prophet Muhammad, according to 'Amr Ibn Sharhabil, HIMSELF mentioned to his wife, Khadija, that he feared he was possessed by DEMONS and jinns and wondered whether others consider him possessed [i.e. evil spirits] (source: pfan. Note 1910:345).

    These statements about the physical symptoms exhibited by Muhammad when he saw the spirit were NOT MADE by strangers, non Muslims or people who did not know him. These statements were made actually by Aisha, Muhammad's favourite wife, relatives, the sahabah and his close followers who strongly believed that he was the seal of the prophets. All these people happened to be very committed Muslims who knew the alleged prophet well!

    Yet when the same angel Gabriel visited Daniel, Zachariah, Mary and other Jewish prophets in the OT, none of them had convulsions, with foam coming from their mouths. Neither did they hear the sounds of bells ringing nor the buzzing of bees near their faces. They did not roar like a camel or swoon, etc.

    Over time Muhammad started having some doubts about the revelations he received from the spirit. Allah (God) directed Muhammad to check the truth from the Bible: If thou wert in doubt as to what we have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the book from before thee (Sura Yunus 10:94).

    The 'book' mentioned in this verse is the Holy Bible obviously. So Muslims are commanded by Allah to study the Bible humbly and with open hearts and minds!

  4. #54
    tWebber
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    Ego, Siam? Frankly, ego has nothing to do with it. Surah 18/4 specifically states that one of Muhamed's mission was to "warn those who say that 'God has begotten a Son'." Several surahs denounce any view of Christ that would elevate him beyond the status of a human prophet.

    In fact, the Quran targets Christians many times. Here's an example of a Quranic verse that specifically attacks and vilifies Christians and condemns them, from surah 9:

    "The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the UNBELIEVERS of old used to say. God's CURSE BE ON THEM: how they are DELUDED away from the Truth!" - surah 9/30.

    Indeed, some passages in the Qur’an seem to deliberately contradict the Biblical proclamation about Jesus Christ. WHO ELSE in the mileau of Muhamed then, are those who staunchly believe in the Son of God like the Christians, some Arab pagans and some Jewish OT verses?

    Even in surah Maryam it says, “Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has BEGOTTEN A SON,’ preach a MONSTROUS FALSEHOOD, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust … that they should ascribe a son to the Merciful when it does not become Him to beget one!” (19:88–91).

    This surah is directly about virgin Mary and the birth of Jesus Christ according to Koranic authority. And verse 91 above harshly attacks the Christian doctrine of the Son of God specifically! To claim otherwise is only denial.

    Then, Surah al-imran 3/59-61 narrates the CONFRONTATION of Muhamed against the CHRISTIANS of Najran in Arabia who visited him in madinah for a dialogue. Here, MUHAMED LECTURES the CHRISTIAN delegation about Jesus NOT being God's Son.

    Seeing that the Christians are not convinced of his explanation and polemics, he resorted to some very nasty action, to challenge the Najran Christian delegation to a mutual cursing ritual ("mubahalah"). And invoke God's punishment and curses upon the "lying party", in this case regarding Jesus Christ's Sonship to God. The Christian concept of the Son of God was a "very bad lie" and a "monstrous falsehood" according to Muhamad.

    Obviously, the Christians and their visiting bishop refused to participate in such nasty, evil business like Muhamed's cursing ritual. Not because they were afraid of Muhamed & his challenge. But because they honored the Lord Jesus commands much more - to never invoke & pray for curses upon their rivals, these Arab Christians were well aware of Jesus is.Isa's command from the Gospel - "bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you" ( Luke 6:28).

    They would rather obey Jesus Christ, the unique Son of God's commands, than to comply with the hateful cursing ritual insisted by Muhamed in sura 3/59-61.

    So the Koran and Muhamad himself do specifically vilify and attack Christianity's foundational truth about the Son of God. However, such vehement attacks on the foundations of the Gospel do not render this key tenet untrue in the least bit.




    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Quran and "mainstream" Christianity---As explained already, The main purpose of the Quran is to persuade peoples towards the concept of One God. It may dent your ego, but....the main purpose of the Quran IS NOT about addressing the concerns of "mainstream" Christianity.

    Dhul Qurnayn---as explained already, the legends of King Arthur may be based on an actual character---but they are stories. The story of Dul Qurnayn may or may not be based on an actual character---that is speculation as the Quran does not specify or name. Its a story. It may take elements---partially or wholly, from other stories/legends/myths. For example, the Bible re-uses the story of Gilgamesh for Prophet Noah.

    Science and Quran---The Quran is not a text for scientists by scientists. Among its audience are children/young adults. It explains/discusses/guides/imparts knowledge so that a "layperson" can understand. (layperson = a person without professional or specialized knowledge in a particular subject.)
    Nevertheless, the Quran encourages the pursuit of knowledge and as a result the Islamic period saw a flourishing of the sciences and of major contributions to the development of the sciences.

  5. #55
    tWebber
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    With the orthodox and original sources of islam giving and exposing rather damning accounts of how Islam's prophet got his "revelations", it's no wonder that many muslims and islamic missionaries would rather stay away from explaining their prophet's mode of revelation.

    For instance, if siam could only address the dubious and forceful ways such revelations came to muhamed and how it scared "the hell" out of him, siam could realize the Sunni and orthodox hadith and sources are telling the truth of muhamed's fits and probable demonic influences when he was "receiving the revelations"!

    None of the Old Testament prophets ever received revelations that came in the way described by the hadith. These are muslims themselves telling the story, not "antagonists against islam." Time for siam and friends to wake up from a deep stuporific slumber about the founder of their religion.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    You also claim that Muhammad's revelations were public knowledge and could be seen or heard by third parties around him at the time.

    But the orthodox islamic sources tell us otherwise.

    We learn from Islamic tradition that on several occasions when Muhammad saw the spirit, he would be so frightened he would run home to his wife and ask her to cover him with clothes: "I was called again and raised my head, and there on the Throne in the open atmosphere he, i.e. Gabriel (peace be upon him) was sitting. I began to tremble on account of fear. I came to Khadija and said: Wrap me up. They wrapped me up and threw water on me..." (Sahih Muslim book 1 ch.74 no.307 p.100. Narrated by Jabir)

    At other times, Muhammad experienced some strange physical symptoms. From the Hadith Mishkat, we learn that, sometimes he would shiver and swoon, roar and snort like a she-camel and white foamy saliva would spill out from his mouth (Hadith Mishkat iv p.359).

    Sometimes when he "received revelation(s) there was the sound like the buzzing of bees near his face" (source: Umar Ibnu'l Khattab), while at other times, he felt a tremendous, terrible headache.

    Muhammad once said: "At times it comes to me like the ringing of a bell and that is most severe for me... and at time an Angel in the form of a human being comes to me... (Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 28 no.5765-5767 p.1248)

    It is unclear why Mohammed later said, "...The bell is the musical instrument of Satan." Sahih Muslim vol.3 book 22 no.5279, also Abu Dawud vol.2 no.2548 -2550

    According Ahmad b. Hanbal, "He became distressed, foaming at the mouth and closing his eyes. At times he snorted like a young camel (Ahmad b. Hanbal I, 34, 464, vi.163). This gave rise to the allegation in certain quarters Muhammad was also an epileptic.

    Prophet Muhammad, according to 'Amr Ibn Sharhabil, HIMSELF mentioned to his wife, Khadija, that he feared he was possessed by DEMONS and jinns and wondered whether others consider him possessed [i.e. evil spirits] (source: pfan. Note 1910:345).

    These statements about the physical symptoms exhibited by Muhammad when he saw the spirit were NOT MADE by strangers, non Muslims or people who did not know him. These statements were made actually by Aisha, Muhammad's favourite wife, relatives, the sahabah and his close followers who strongly believed that he was the seal of the prophets. All these people happened to be very committed Muslims who knew the alleged prophet well!

    Yet when the same angel Gabriel visited Daniel, Zachariah, Mary and other Jewish prophets in the OT, none of them had convulsions, with foam coming from their mouths. Neither did they hear the sounds of bells ringing nor the buzzing of bees near their faces. They did not roar like a camel or swoon, etc.

    Over time Muhammad started having some doubts about the revelations he received from the spirit. Allah (God) directed Muhammad to check the truth from the Bible: If thou wert in doubt as to what we have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the book from before thee (Sura Yunus 10:94).

    The 'book' mentioned in this verse is the Holy Bible obviously. So Muslims are commanded by Allah to study the Bible humbly and with open hearts and minds!

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