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Thread: A Superbly Flawed Quran..

  1. #101
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    1. Faith vs. unbelief (1 – 20).
    2. Allah’s creation and knowledge (21 – 39).
    3. Deliverance of Law to Children of Israel (40 – 103).
    4. Abraham was tested (104 – 141).
    5. Ka’ba is the new qibla (142 – 152).
    6. Muslims will be tested (153 – 177).
    7. Deliverance of Law to Muslims (178 – 253).
    8. Allah’s creation and knowledge (254 – 284).
    9. Faith vs. unbelief (285 – 286).

    http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/2.htm

    21. O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness;

    22. Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth).

    23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

    24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

    25. But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).

    26. Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

    27. Those who break Allah.s Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what Allah Has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: These cause loss (only) to themselves.

    28. How can ye reject the faith in Allah.- seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.

    29. It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

    30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

    31. And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."

    32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

    33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

    34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

    35. We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

    36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

    37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

    38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    39. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."

  2. #102
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  3. #103
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    siam, what ever gave you the idea that we wanted you to post verses of the Qur'an here in this topic thread???

  4. #104
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    siam, are you having a problem finding the verses in the Qur'an related to the making of the Golden Calf? Do you want some help?

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    1. Faith vs. unbelief (1 – 20).
    2. Allah’s creation and knowledge (21 – 39).
    3. Deliverance of Law to Children of Israel (40 – 103).
    4. Abraham was tested (104 – 141).
    5. Ka’ba is the new qibla (142 – 152).
    6. Muslims will be tested (153 – 177).
    7. Deliverance of Law to Muslims (178 – 253).
    8. Allah’s creation and knowledge (254 – 284).
    9. Faith vs. unbelief (285 – 286).

    http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/2.htm

    21. O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness;

    22. Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth).

    23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

    24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

    25. But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).

    26. Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

    27. Those who break Allah.s Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what Allah Has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: These cause loss (only) to themselves.

    28. How can ye reject the faith in Allah.- seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.

    29. It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

    30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

    31. And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."

    32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

    33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

    34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

    35. We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

    36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

    37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

    38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    39. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."
    Well isn't that special. Not to mention totally irrelevant to the discussion.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  6. Amen Christian3 amen'd this post.
  7. #106
    tWebber
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    Christian3, and Rogue,

    siam is flooding (read: "running away" from) your requests with verses that are totally IRRELEVANT to the questions posed. At the same time, he is also running away from many questions that I for example, have posed and he tries to dismiss them as "intellectually restricting" or not "widening to his intellectual horizon". HOW SELECTIVE and Hypocritical.

    But all that is just selective hogwash and choosing to avoid answering -with relevance- the real issues we want answered from a missionary for islam and muhamed.

    IN that, he fails miserably. siam would rather preach and pontificate to us about the poetic traits of sura 1 and 2 and...!? Which is of no interest to us, because those things never ever proved the authenticity of any koranic propoganda.




    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    siam, what ever gave you the idea that we wanted you to post verses of the Qur'an here in this topic thread???

  8. #107
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    Siam, NO! We are NOT interested in your "sacred sounds" or whatever sacred cows you present to us with banal IRRELEVANCE above !

    Why are you RUNNING AWAY again from the questions I posed to you above & earlier - about sura 1 / fatihah?!?

    They are reproduced again here for your benefit:

    Who decided on the right or appropriate "placement" of such words of sura al-fatiha in the koran? Muhamed? Allah? the editor of the koran?

    According to your own admission, sura 1 / al-fatihah is "a prayer". It sounds like an appeal to God...How can THAT be any word from God??

    Does Allah/your god PRAY TO HIMSELF? That would make 2 gods in the koran!

    How can the kalam / claimed word of God be in a prayer form right THROUGH?

    The prayer in here is not any instruction to live by the koran's prescription. If God sent down those words as his kalam, then he must BE PRAYING TO HIMSELF

    - appealing to be shown the straight path

    - does God NOT KNOW what that path IS? He must be a very ignorant god! Not qualified to be any 'god'.

    - "Thee alone we worship" - Allah / your god is praying to himself - since every sura or chapter of the koran supposedly "came down from the
    mother of the book / ummul kitab" - the 'repository of his words'

    Surah Fatihah's contents are totally inconsistent with all the other suras / chapters of the koran because it is a "prayer" as you say! It all doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

    If it is just a prayer, then it is ONLY the words of Man and not a 'revelation' from the mouth of God / Allah! YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS..! IF it is "Allah's words" THEN Allah is praying to himself - now. DOES HE ?!?

    Please ANSWER the above with relevant words..not with ludicrous and irrelevant, desperate propoganda preaching about its so-called poetic and rhythmic whatever. We are not as naive as you to do that.

  9. #108
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    Trucker, this was the quoted verses from sura 1 / fatihah that siam wanted so desperately to persuade you of its "auditory experience"..but I am sure you weren't looking for any such experience - rather for a sensible and intellectual answer which he FAILED MISERABLY TO ADDRESS, much less give.

    Surah 1. The Opening

    1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
    3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
    4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
    5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
    6. Show us the straight way,
    7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.


    I asked siam about the hate speech found in Surah Fatihah 1 verses 6 & 7 highlighted above. They are there, and confirmed by the well-known orthodox islamic authorities

    from sura fatihah (1) / 6-7:

    Many people (including Muslims) are unaware of the fact that Surah al-Fatihah, the chapter that Muslims are required to recite at the start of each and every one of their daily prayers (SALAT / NAMAZ) actually contains an invocation asking Allah TO NEVER ALLOW THEM them to become like a Jew or a Christian, in effect, vilifying and condemning THEM JUST LIKE ADVERSARIES AND VIRULENT ENEMIES.

    In sura 1 vs 6-7, Muslims pray that Allah guide them to the straight path, saving them from the path of those who have incurred his anger and/or who have gone astray:

    "Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose portion is not WRATH, and who go not ASTRAY." A. Yusuf Ali

    According to the Muslim sources, THE JEWS are the ones who have incurred AllahÂ’s WRATH/CURSE/CONDEMNATION, and THE CHRISTIANS are those who have GONE ASTRAY & LOST THEIR WAY:


    "The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)." S. 1:7 Hilali-Khan

    Narrated Adi bin Hatim: I asked Allah’s Messenger about the Statement of Allah: "Gharil maghdubi ‘alaihim - not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger - WRATH AND CURSE!" he replied: "THEY ARE THE JEWS".

    And 2: "Walad dallin (nor of those who went astray)," he replied: "THE CHRISTIANS, and they are THE ONES WHO WENT ASTRAY".

    This is confirmation of VILIFICATION and Hate Speech from these koran verses against the Christian and the Jews.


    [This Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud]. (Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble QurÂ’an in the English Language with Comments from Tafsir At-Tabari, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi and Tafsir Ibn Kathir and Ahadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other Ahadith books [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Lahore, Houston, New York], Part 1: From Surah 1 to 5, p. 30.

    The above statements are 100% CONFIRMATION from recognised modern muslim scholars and authorities like Muhd Muhsin Khan, Taqiuddin al-Hilali and the classical ulamas and the Tafsirs (commentaries, exegesis etc) of recognised luminaries like ibn Kathir, Tabari, Qurtubi


    Are you recognised as even half a scholar like ANY of the above names, siam?

    And, WHAT Part of "adversarial" don't you understand from the above, siam?

    The Christians are NOT being adversarial here, but so many of the the Koran's verses, statements and commands here, ARE! And full of unjustified HATE SPEECH against Jews and Christians. OR - are you just denying these verses AND the Ulamas/Muslim scholars confirmations from your Koran?

    He just ran away and avoided the questions above about sura Fatihah v 6-7.




    Quote Originally Posted by Trucker View Post
    Would you care to tell us how many times this Surah is repeated daily in the prayers of a devout Muslim??

  10. #109
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    When I first came to this forum I was amazed at the deep knowledge some of the posters here have regarding the depth of the evil that Islam is. Your posts, including this one merely demonstrate and confirm my first impressions here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Trucker, this was the quoted verses from sura 1 / fatihah that siam wanted so desperately to persuade you of its "auditory experience"..but I am sure you weren't looking for any such experience - rather for a sensible and intellectual answer which he FAILED MISERABLY TO ADDRESS, much less give.

    Surah 1. The Opening

    1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
    3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
    4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
    5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
    6. Show us the straight way,
    7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.


    I asked siam about the hate speech found in Surah Fatihah 1 verses 6 & 7 highlighted above. They are there, and confirmed by the well-known orthodox islamic authorities

    from sura fatihah (1) / 6-7:

    Many people (including Muslims) are unaware of the fact that Surah al-Fatihah, the chapter that Muslims are required to recite at the start of each and every one of their daily prayers (SALAT / NAMAZ) actually contains an invocation asking Allah TO NEVER ALLOW THEM them to become like a Jew or a Christian, in effect, vilifying and condemning THEM JUST LIKE ADVERSARIES AND VIRULENT ENEMIES.

    In sura 1 vs 6-7, Muslims pray that Allah guide them to the straight path, saving them from the path of those who have incurred his anger and/or who have gone astray:

    "Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose portion is not WRATH, and who go not ASTRAY." A. Yusuf Ali

    According to the Muslim sources, THE JEWS are the ones who have incurred AllahÂ’s WRATH/CURSE/CONDEMNATION, and THE CHRISTIANS are those who have GONE ASTRAY & LOST THEIR WAY:


    "The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)." S. 1:7 Hilali-Khan

    Narrated Adi bin Hatim: I asked Allah’s Messenger about the Statement of Allah: "Gharil maghdubi ‘alaihim - not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger - WRATH AND CURSE!" he replied: "THEY ARE THE JEWS".

    And 2: "Walad dallin (nor of those who went astray)," he replied: "THE CHRISTIANS, and they are THE ONES WHO WENT ASTRAY".

    This is confirmation of VILIFICATION and Hate Speech from these koran verses against the Christian and the Jews.


    [This Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud]. (Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble QurÂ’an in the English Language with Comments from Tafsir At-Tabari, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi and Tafsir Ibn Kathir and Ahadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other Ahadith books [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Lahore, Houston, New York], Part 1: From Surah 1 to 5, p. 30.

    The above statements are 100% CONFIRMATION from recognised modern muslim scholars and authorities like Muhd Muhsin Khan, Taqiuddin al-Hilali and the classical ulamas and the Tafsirs (commentaries, exegesis etc) of recognised luminaries like ibn Kathir, Tabari, Qurtubi
    Yes. Absolutely! I am and have been vividly aware of all this which is my reason for coming here in the first place. It is a long story as to how I came to make it a project to study and find the truth regarding Islam ... which I will not boor you with.

    I have been given different answers from MUslims re how many times a devout Muslim is required to recite the fatihah each day. I was a bit curious as to the figure our resident Islamic polemicist would provide.For whatever his reson[s] he has so far elected to pass on the question. But my real aim in bring this question up was to lead into where you are with your challenge of hate speech. Hate speech the devout Muslim will recite numerous times every day!!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Are you recognised as even half a scholar like ANY of the above names, siam?

    And, WHAT Part of "adversarial" don't you understand from the above, siam?

    The Christians are NOT being adversarial here, but so many of the the Koran's verses, statements and commands here, ARE! And full of unjustified HATE SPEECH against Jews and Christians. OR - are you just denying these verses AND the Ulamas/Muslim scholars confirmations from your Koran?

    He just ran away and avoided the questions above about sura Fatihah v 6-7.
    He seems to be well acquainted with the "party line". And like Kenny Rogers, he knows when to play what cards.

    Keep on keeping on .... I like your style!!

  11. #110
    tWebber
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    Trucker! Thanks so much for your encouragement, man, appreciated.

    We need to hold the muslim missionaries accountable when they try to preach islam to people BUT by trying to cover up the glaring errors and the koran's doubtful polemics.

    I also find some other brethren here, like Christian3 and rogue et al, and perhaps more, who are consistent with their sincere AND intelligent questions posed to the muslims. Unfortunately, the same CANNOT be said of the muslims dawagandists / propogandists.. how desperate for these missionaries in offering rational replies.




    Quote Originally Posted by Trucker View Post
    When I first came to this forum I was amazed at the deep knowledge some of the posters here have regarding the depth of the evil that Islam is. Your posts, including this one merely demonstrate and confirm my first impressions here.



    Yes. Absolutely! I am and have been vividly aware of all this which is my reason for coming here in the first place. It is a long story as to how I came to make it a project to study and find the truth regarding Islam ... which I will not boor you with.

    I have been given different answers from MUslims re how many times a devout Muslim is required to recite the fatihah each day. I was a bit curious as to the figure our resident Islamic polemicist would provide.For whatever his reson[s] he has so far elected to pass on the question. But my real aim in bring this question up was to lead into where you are with your challenge of hate speech. Hate speech the devout Muslim will recite numerous times every day!!!!




    He seems to be well acquainted with the "party line". And like Kenny Rogers, he knows when to play what cards.

    Keep on keeping on .... I like your style!!

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