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Thread: A Superbly Flawed Quran..

  1. #61
    tWebber
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    If muslims dislike the non-muslims scholars studies and research findings on the Koran, hadith, sunna and even the Sirah (or history of Muhd.) Then let a Muslim's research and diligent investigations reveal the truth about the sources of orthodox islam - the Koran, hadith and the Sirah.

    Brother Rachid of Morocco, a native Arab speaker, devoted Muslim and seeker for truth produced a powerful video and PowerPoint on his research into the "official biography of Muhamed" the sirat rasulullah by the 'well-known' Ibn Ishaq. Rachid has since left Islam and become a Christian, resulting from his diligent research and open, objective investigation into the sources of Islam and the sunna.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD5tL4LDH-M

    It is amazing how much forgery there are in the origins of Rachid's religion that he quit..And they dare claim the New Testament and Gospel have been 'corrupted', tampered and changed, when the proofs are not at all in their favor, while the proofs for the veracity and reliability of the NT, Gospel and the Bible are overwhelmingly strong.





    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    The Qur'an is a mess. It has Muhammad's fingerprints all over it.

    Didn't the author of the Qur'an know that Jews and Christians call God Father?

    Jesus never would have call Allah Father.

  2. #62
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    If muslims dislike the non-muslims scholars studies and research findings on the Koran, hadith, sunna and even the Sirah (or history of Muhd.) Then let a Muslim's research and diligent investigations reveal the truth about the sources of orthodox islam - the Koran, hadith and the Sirah.

    Brother Rachid of Morocco, a native Arab speaker, devoted Muslim and seeker for truth produced a powerful video and PowerPoint on his research into the "official biography of Muhamed" the sirat rasulullah by the 'well-known' Ibn Ishaq. Rachid has since left Islam and become a Christian, resulting from his diligent research and open, objective investigation into the sources of Islam and the sunna.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD5tL4LDH-M

    It is amazing how much forgery there are in the origins of Rachid's religion that he quit..And they dare claim the New Testament and Gospel have been 'corrupted', tampered and changed, when the proofs are not at all in their favor, while the proofs for the veracity and reliability of the NT, Gospel and the Bible are overwhelmingly strong.
    WOW! I have that book mentioned in the video. I thought it would be reliable because it was the earliest biography of Muhammad.

    I'm going to have to take the time to check out the borrowing from Christianity.

  3. #63
    tWebber
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    The earliest narrative style biography of Muhamed was written 200 years after he died. That means a lot of myths, legends and later modifications were embellished into the Sira.

    No wonder scholars like Saunders and many historians do not trust the Koran, hadith and Sira as reliable sources of historical facts. Brother Rachid has given some insights into the parallelisms between the Sirat rasulullah by ibn Ishaq to the Gospel in the Bible.




    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    WOW! I have that book mentioned in the video. I thought it would be reliable because it was the earliest biography of Muhammad.

    I'm going to have to take the time to check out the borrowing from Christianity.

  4. #64
    tWebber
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    But Jesus DID call God Father, not just that - He expressly and specifically instructed His followers and disciples to pray God as the Heavenly Father.

    Meaning that the eyewitness accounts in the Gospel and NT affirm the OT - the Torah, Psalms and the Prophets, that the true followers of God are His children.

    Muhd's fingerprints coming 700 years LATER in the Koran prove that he was just copying from the earlier, ancient texts and forging his own (or their own) to suit their islamist agenda.

    The writers of the koran alao borrowed from extra biblical sources outside the Torah & Psalms like the Mishnah, Talmud, midrash and targums etc claiming that was the "word of God that descended from heaven" when they were just a bunch of fairy-tales, myths and legends.



    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    The Qur'an is a mess. It has Muhammad's fingerprints all over it.

    Didn't the author of the Qur'an know that Jews and Christians call God Father?

    Jesus never would have call Allah Father.

  5. #65
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    But Jesus DID call God Father, not just that - He expressly and specifically instructed His followers and disciples to pray God as the Heavenly Father.

    Meaning that the eyewitness accounts in the Gospel and NT affirm the OT - the Torah, Psalms and the Prophets, that the true followers of God are His children.

    Muhd's fingerprints coming 700 years LATER in the Koran prove that he was just copying from the earlier, ancient texts and forging his own (or their own) to suit their islamist agenda.

    The writers of the koran alao borrowed from extra biblical sources outside the Torah & Psalms like the Mishnah, Talmud, midrash and targums etc claiming that was the "word of God that descended from heaven" when they were just a bunch of fairy-tales, myths and legends.
    The Qur'an is most assuredly a mess. For a great overview/synopsis on the findings of several of the scholars regarding Islam, Muhammad, and the Qur'an I would suggest Robert Spencer's DID MUHAMMAD EXIST book. Whatever the the Qur'an may be is is NOT a clear and understandable book in perfect Arabic!

  6. #66
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trucker View Post
    The Qur'an is most assuredly a mess. For a great overview/synopsis on the findings of several of the scholars regarding Islam, Muhammad, and the Qur'an I would suggest Robert Spencer's DID MUHAMMAD EXIST book. Whatever the the Qur'an may be is is NOT a clear and understandable book in perfect Arabic!
    Focusing in on the underlined and bolded part...
    siam and I discussed this part

    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    There are 2 points---The Surah has to be in Arabic (though not specified by the Quran) because the criterion to establish equal value is based on the linguistic characteristics of the Arabic Quran---this is because, as the Quran itself says, it is a book revealed in Arabic.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    This claim that one can only properly understand the Qur'an in Arabic has always seemed peculiar, almost an excuse[1], since it really isn't the Arabic document that Muslims claim it to be.

    Now, while Muhammad declared that Arabic is the divine language (that is it is the language of Allah) and proclaimed on numerous occasions that the Qur'an was sent down in Arabic (suras 12:2; 13:37; 42:7), the fact is that there are many foreign words and phrases that are used in the Qur'an -- some of which have no Arabic equivalent, and others that do. For example the Egyptian word for king, "Pharaoh," is used used nearly 50 times and the Accadian word for garden, "Eden" (which does have an Arabic equivalent -- "Janna"), is used something like two dozen times.

    Other words that have been borrowed from foreign languages include Assyrian (Abraham or Ibrahim, with an Arabic equivalent in "Abu Raheem), Aramaic, Greek, Persian, Syriac, Hebrew, and Christian Ethiopic.

    So why are these words borrowed? Why are these words from other languages found in the supposedly pure Arabic Qur'an? Was Allah unable to sufficiently express himself in the perfect language of Arabic?



    1. As in one designed to hand wave anything one finds difficult to explain since one can then argue that it can only be properly read and understood in Arabic.
    In response this was the gist (for it's entirety click on the arrow after siam's name)

    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Why are there words in the Arabic language that are also used by other Semitic languages such as Aramaic and Hebrew? ---Because Arabic is also a Semitic language and therefore uses a similar 3 letter root word system as Hebrew.
    And my response to this (there's an additional line regarding his ending but not pertinent here)

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    You seem to be glossing over the usage of words from languages that are not that closely related such as Greek, Egyptian and Persian and not just other Semitic languages. Claiming that if you go back far enough all the languages used eventually originate out of a similar source is nothing but a blatant red herring that means utterly nothing.

    And all of this ignores the central claim made by Muslims that Arabic is the only language by which the Qu'ran can be understood in. That it is the language used by God as in heaven. If that is truly so then why do they keep using words from inferior languages over and over -- especially in cases where there are Arabic words that could be used? The example I provided was the use of "Eden" where "Janna" is the Arabic equivalent, but there are many other examples.

    Further, the qur'an tends to use the Greek names for Hebrew prophets which is peculiar in the extreme especially since Muhammad repeatedly proclaimed that it was sent down in Arabic. For instance, Jonah (which is Yonah in Hebrew) is rendered Yunus in the qu'ran. Yunus comes from the Greek Septuagint version of his name (Yunas). Why would Allah use the Greek version of a Hebrew name especially when the qu'ran repeatedly proclaims it was written in Arabic? The same is true for Elijah who is referred to as Ilyas or Ilyasin in the qu'ran which is how it is written in Greek versions of Scripture.
    added the following


    which is worth a watch

    And this commenting on my second (last) post in the exchange recorded

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    It's not just that it claims to be Arabic, but "Arabic pure, and clear". Not exactly "pure" with foreign words in there.

    We know indeed that they say,
    "It is a man that teaches him."
    The tongue of him they wickedly point to
    is notably foreign,
    while this is Arabic, pure and clear.
    -- Sura 16:101-103

    As well as continuing with siam for a bit.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

  7. #67
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Focusing in on the underlined and bolded part...
    siam and I discussed this part ....... .
    If you are who your above quoted statement seems to imply you are let me assure you that I have every respect in the world for the work you are doing, sir. Especially I admire the stand you and Nabeesl took in Dearborn!! Thank God for those such as yourself ... and so sorry to hear of Nabeel's demise. I meant absolutely nothing against your post to which I replied and recommend one of Robert Spencer's books. I admire much of Spencer's [as well as Ibn Warraq's, Bat Ye'or's, Andrew Bostrom's, Sam Soloman's, and etc. etc, etc, work] In other words, I guess some folks think of me as a bit of a book worm ... I like books. also have many of your video's bookmarked ... but I still like books too.

    If you are who I've understood you to be, keep on keeping on!! And God bless!

  8. #68
    tWebber
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    Does anyone want to read the Quran with me to determine for themselves the claim that it is a "mess" or not?

  9. #69
    tWebber
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    Another Muslim, Ali Dashti had already discovered the mess of the Koran and exposed it in his Books, like so:

    An intelligent and intellectual muslim like Ali Dashti was able to conclude this about the inconsistencies and problems of the Koran:

    "The Qor'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects.

    "These and other SUCH ABERRATIONS in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qor'an's eloquence. THE PROBLEM ALSO OCCUPIED THE MINDS OF DEVOUT MOSLEMS. It forced the commentators to search for explanations and was probably one of the causes of disagreement over readings." (pp. 48-49)

    The views on the Qor'an held by Ebrahim on-Nazzam have been already mentioned, and it must be added that THEY WERE NOT HIS ALONE, but were also held by other scholars of the Mo'tazelite school such as Hesham b. 'Amr pl-Fuwati (d. ca. 218/833) and 'Abbad b. Solayman (d. ca. 250/864). ALL WERE DEVOUT BELIEVERS.

    The great and penetrating Arab thinker Abu'l-'Ala ol-Ma'arri considered some of his own writings ON A PAR WITH THE ELOQUENCE OF THE QOR'AN. (p. 50)

    "To sum up, more than ONE HUNDRED Qor'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted. Needless to say, THE COMMENTATORS STROVE TO FIND EXPLANATIONS AND JUSTIFICATIONS FOR THESE IRREGULARITIES. Among them was the great commentator and philologist MAHMUD OZ-ZAMAKHSHARI (467/1075-538/1144)

    Ali Dashti, 23 Years: A study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad, Mazda Publishers,U.S.; 1994

    Likewise, celebrated scholar, ibn Khaldun admitted the dubious development and messed-up historiography of the primitive koran, in his Muqaddimah.

    WHY didn't you take issue with these honest Muslim thinkers? They know much more of islam and the koran than you siam, and have no good reason to trust in it with integrity.


    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Does anyone want to read the Quran with me to determine for themselves the claim that it is a "mess" or not?

  10. #70
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trucker View Post
    If you are who your above quoted statement seems to imply you are let me assure you that I have every respect in the world for the work you are doing, sir. Especially I admire the stand you and Nabeesl took in Dearborn!! Thank God for those such as yourself ... and so sorry to hear of Nabeel's demise. I meant absolutely nothing against your post to which I replied and recommend one of Robert Spencer's books. I admire much of Spencer's [as well as Ibn Warraq's, Bat Ye'or's, Andrew Bostrom's, Sam Soloman's, and etc. etc, etc, work] In other words, I guess some folks think of me as a bit of a book worm ... I like books. also have many of your video's bookmarked ... but I still like books too.

    If you are who I've understood you to be, keep on keeping on!! And God bless!
    I don't think I'm who you think I am.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

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