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Thread: A Superbly Flawed Quran..

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    @DZ
    I do not know much about Christian doctrine or history---but Constantine is relevant to "Western" Church history? ---from what little I know---the Nestorian/Syriac Churches were already established in the East and Far East by the 4th Century?---they were translating their bibles into Chinese and such?
    r u familiar with this part of history?

  2. #12
    tWebber
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  3. #13
    tWebber
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    The koranic quote from Q5/116 are words it assumes Jesus Christ allegedly taught His followers 600 years before muhd's appearance.

    And of course they are erroneous and untrue! In the Gospel & NT manuscript records the Lord Jesus Christ NEVER taught any such heretical nonsense.

    He Himself actually, positively and affirmatively identified Himself with deity and divinity. As the Son of God - Matt.11:27, Luke 10:22, etc and as the Son of Man - in ALL FOUR Gospels, a prophetic throwback to Daniel 7:13-14 ff.

    As such Jesus Christ DID claim worship as God, for Himself as recorded in John 20:28 -

    "Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Jesus said to him, 'Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.' "

    Would Jesus Christ have endorsed Apostle Thomas' worship of Jesus as Lord and GOD, if He was indeed not divine in nature? Christ actually went FURTHER than that, besides endorsing Thomas's worship of Christ, Jesus went on to BLESS ALL of humanity who have not (yet) seen Jesus as Thomas did that glorious day, and yet believed as he did in Jesus Christ as "LORD and GOD"!

    So it is crystal clear in the entire NT, which includes the Gospel portion in it obviously, Jesus Christ proclaimed and declared His deity and divinity without any hesitation. He did that in both words and actions / deeds. And so His followers and disciples accorded to Him the due worship, naturally.

    Not once in the Holy Bible did Jesus ever declare, teach or enjoin the 'worship of His earthly mother Mary' as what sura 5/116 presumptiously says.

    I am not concerned or even bothered with whatever titles later churches gave to Mary. Meter theou or theotokos or whatever, they do not in the least translate into a command from God or Jesus to worship her in even the slightest fashion.

    The false trinity of God, the Son Jesus and His mother Mary is referenced in the sura 5 (al maidah) verse in the Koran.

    Which had never been intimated by Jesus Christ at all in the relevant historical records. Truly Biblical, orthodox Christianity had never worshipped virgin Mary. Except for heretical and heterodox groups like the Collyridians that took and worshipped her as a goddess.

    Muhamed & the Koran had subsequently and much later on, picked up the heretical ie. False and erroneous teachings of the cultic collyridians and assumed them to be the true, Christian teachings - which obviously they are NOT!

    None of the Canon of Biblical scripture had ever enjoined Mary-worship, except for what muhamed & his koran fallaciously assumes centuries later, after the fact.

    No, Christians have NO Misconception of the oneness of God. The Trinity is not about worshipping "three Gods". We worship ONE GOD, Who expressed Himself in a Triune way in the Bible and the authentic teachings of Jesus Christ.

    It is your koran siam and your founder of islam muhamed, who both made fatal & erroneous misconceptions & misguided statements it forces on to the lips of Jesus Christ like that found in suram5/116! So tragic..!



    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    thanks---interesting info

    In any case, In the Quranic verse in question---S5,v116---God asks Jesus if he told people "to take me and my mother for two Gods besides God"? and Jesus, son of Mary and Messenger of God replies that he did not say what he had no right to say.
    Can any Christian point to any direct quote or saying of Jesus, son of Mary where he declares himself and his mother to be 2 Gods besides God?
    .....Therefore any misconception any Christian may have had regarding God as One is cleared up here in the Quran.
    God is ONE----I believe this is a statement that Christians cannot disagree with?---am I correct?
    If so, the Quranic statement that there are not 2 more Gods besides God is also correct. Therefore, any Christian believing that there are more than one Gods is incorrect and the Quran is simply stating the obvious.

  4. #14
    tWebber
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    Get to know some history about the Collyridian heresy that existed in Muhameds time -

    https://www.cathedralofthesoul.org/s...Feminine?_amp_

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    tWebber
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    The orthodox Christian doctrine and theological position of the church regarding the divine nature of Christ was already clearly and firmly established at the Council of Ephesus i.e. 431 CE. Over 200 years before Islam's arrival.

    Emperor Constantine did the church a big favor by endorsing the Council of Nicea circa 325 CE and at the following Council the 2 natures of Christ was unmistakably recognised and given creedal formula.

    Such Church councils are important so that heresy, heterodoxy and false teachings could not take root in a church that was growing exponentially, worldwide. And had to give a concise, precise and theologically and Scripturally authentic statement and summary of Faith that was passed down from Jesus Christ through the earliest Apostles (hawarii).

    The very first church Council was convened in Jerusalem by all the apostolic leaders of the church in 48 AD and recorded in Acts 15. The Christian leaders discussed very important matters affecting the life of the early church and the earliest Christians).

    At the Council of Ephesus (431 AD) it was affirmed that Christ Jesus, in his divine nature as the uncreated Word of God (Logos in Greek, Kalimatullah in Arabic), "proceeded ie. born of the Father (God, the First Cause of everything), without a Mother."

    In other words, God's Word proceeds eternally from God alone, from eternity past, without a beginning. So, God's Word is eternal And UNCREATED. That's what the "without a mother" phrase means, above.

    In Syrian Christian orthodox expression: 'La min tsivyana d'basra, wla min tsivyana d'gabra' means: Born not from blood, nor from flesh.

    Furthermore, in the orthodox Canon of Faith or kanun al-iman (Christian Confession) it underscores the fact that the Word of God descended (came down) from heaven through the power of the Holy Spirit and became human ie. incarnated through the Virgin Mary..("Nazala minas sama'i wa tajjasada bi-Ruh al-Quddus wa min Maryam al-Adzra'i wa ta'anas")

    This principle, further summarised at the Council of Ephesus as "born through a mother, without a human father."

    This means the Virgin birth of Christ happened "in time and space" (fi az-zaman wa al-makan) from Virgin Mary without the touch of a human male.

    Jesus proceeded, or came out from God the Father as His eternal, uncreated Word - hence Jesus' divinity, and incarnated (came down, nazala) on the earth through the Virgin Mary, hence His human form.

    Jesus has 2 natures - divine And human in Himself. And so has the Koran interestingly.

  6. #16
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    @DZ
    I do not know much about Christian doctrine or history---but Constantine is relevant to "Western" Church history? ---from what little I know---the Nestorian/Syriac Churches were already established in the East and Far East by the 4th Century?---they were translating their bibles into Chinese and such?
    r u familiar with this part of history?
    The Nestorian Church didn't exist until the 5th century, and after the split they were relatively tolerated in the Persian empire because they were at odds with the Roman Emperor. They reached China in maybe the 7th/8th century.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

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  7. #17
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    thanks---interesting info

    In any case, In the Quranic verse in question---S5,v116---God asks Jesus if he told people "to take me and my mother for two Gods besides God"? and Jesus, son of Mary and Messenger of God replies that he did not say what he had no right to say.
    Can any Christian point to any direct quote or saying of Jesus, son of Mary where he declares himself and his mother to be 2 Gods besides God?
    .....Therefore any misconception any Christian may have had regarding God as One is cleared up here in the Quran.
    God is ONE----I believe this is a statement that Christians cannot disagree with?---am I correct?
    If so, the Quranic statement that there are not 2 more Gods besides God is also correct. Therefore, any Christian believing that there are more than one Gods is incorrect and the Quran is simply stating the obvious.
    The entire misconception is that the writer of the Quran thought there was a question about that which needed to be clarified. The accusation that Christians believed in ditheism or tritheism was never more than a matter of polemics based on a misunderstanding of Trinitarian doctrine. Why is the Quranic author immolating a strawman?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  8. #18
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The entire misconception is that the writer of the Quran thought there was a question about that which needed to be clarified. The accusation that Christians believed in ditheism or tritheism was never more than a matter of polemics based on a misunderstanding of Trinitarian doctrine. Why is the Quranic author immolating a strawman?
    The people researching the Quran today no longer consider such things as "misunderstanding" ----putting aside the question of the "author" for the moment,---Those researching the Quran in the West are saying the Quran is in dialogue with its audience and that by looking at what it is saying and to whom---a picture of the society/milieu of that time might emerge. (Western) Christians seem to think that the entire Quran is addressed to them---but this is not the case.

  9. #19
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The Nestorian Church didn't exist until the 5th century, and after the split they were relatively tolerated in the Persian empire because they were at odds with the Roman Emperor. They reached China in maybe the 7th/8th century.
    So while the Western Church began to form an Orthodoxy that became more or less established by the 4th C---the Eastern Churches were different?....right? From what little I can understand of Christian history---there were the Coptics, The Tawhedo Eastern Church (Kingdom of Axum), Syriac Church, St Tomas Christians, Nestoreans, Nazareans...etc...etc....?????......which today form the various Eastern orthodoxies...?....is this right?

  10. #20
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The entire misconception is that the writer of the Quran thought there was a question about that which needed to be clarified. The accusation that Christians believed in ditheism or tritheism was never more than a matter of polemics based on a misunderstanding of Trinitarian doctrine. Why is the Quranic author immolating a strawman?
    Perhaps it wasn't deliberate. Maybe the author was just ignorant or ill-informed.

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