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Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    This is not so.
    Given your propensity to spew forth claim you cannot support, this is hereby dismissed as NONSENSE!!!!!!
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      No, actually Tass had it right all along, i.e. that Buttigieg isn't a real christian according to you, which really is all that you have been arguing.
      False.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
        The bolded has been part of my point all along. Philo was writing for a Roman/Hellenistic audience, so he would have had reason to mention and defend the Jewish prohibitions against homosexual relationships. For Jesus, who would have been primarily "preaching to the choir" on this issue, there would have been no need what so ever for Him to mention anything against it. The very fact that Jesus never mentions homosexual practices in a positive light when the prevailing opinion was against it in the areas where He was active is most reasonably seen as tacit support for the prohibition, especially in view of the fact that He had such a high regard for the Jewish Law, and never mentioned anything about taking exception to the prohibitions about homosexual relationships in that very same Law.

        If Jesus wanted to He would have had ample opportunity to say something to the effect of condoning same-sex relationships, but unfortunately for your unstated position that Jesus might have been fine with having sex with people of the same gender such affirmations are noticeably absent.
        So, barring a "You have heard it said that homosexuality is a sin, but I say....." kind of statement....

        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Which is strange since you'd think you'd run into a "the bible says" argument once in awhile on a Christian forum.
          So this is interesting - and since it's not a continuation of "Is Buttigieg as practicing Christian," I'll respond. I do indeed "run into them," I just don't engage in them anymore. When someone defends a position they have with "the bible says," the best I can do is nod, smile, and perhaps respond, "isn't that nice."

          This is one of several perspectives that has changed since I came back to TWeb. I actually used to engage in them regularly. It took me a while to realize I was engaging in a pointless exercise and disengage. The same is true of debating specific points of morality with a "bible-based" moralist, though I have to admit that is a very recent awakening on my part. Last few weeks, actually. I had not thought through my own beliefs about morality to fully appreciate the futility of that exercise.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            So this is interesting - and since it's not a continuation of "Is Buttigieg as practicing Christian,"
            Actually, the "ongoing" was based on Tassman's false claim that Buttigieg HIMSELF claimed to be a "practicing Christian".

            I'll respond. I do indeed "run into them," I just don't engage in them anymore. When someone defends a position they have with "the bible says," the best I can do is nod, smile, and perhaps respond, "isn't that nice."

            This is one of several perspectives that has changed since I came back to TWeb. I actually used to engage in them regularly. It took me a while to realize I was engaging in a pointless exercise and disengage. The same is true of debating specific points of morality with a "bible-based" moralist, though I have to admit that is a very recent awakening on my part. Last few weeks, actually. I had not thought through my own beliefs about morality to fully appreciate the futility of that exercise.
            So, interesting point ---

            A) the issue of Tassman's unproven claim Buttigieg himself claimed to be a "practicing Christian" is not a "what the Bible says" issue.
            2) the issue of whether or not Buttigieg actually IS a "practicing Christian" very much involves "what the Bible says".

            You tended, in this thread, to dabble in both.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              So this is interesting - and since it's not a continuation of "Is Buttigieg as practicing Christian," I'll respond. I do indeed "run into them," I just don't engage in them anymore. When someone defends a position they have with "the bible says," the best I can do is nod, smile, and perhaps respond, "isn't that nice."

              This is one of several perspectives that has changed since I came back to TWeb. I actually used to engage in them regularly. It took me a while to realize I was engaging in a pointless exercise and disengage. The same is true of debating specific points of morality with a "bible-based" moralist, though I have to admit that is a very recent awakening on my part. Last few weeks, actually. I had not thought through my own beliefs about morality to fully appreciate the futility of that exercise.
              Then why do you continue to argue about morality with seer in nearly every thread?

              And if you don't want to argue about "what the bible says" about various topics then you are probably on the wrong forum since that is pretty much what THEOLOGYWEB is about. Sounds more like a convenient way to dismiss your opponent's argument than anything else.

              Comment


              • So, let's sum things up again.

                As to Tassman's claim that Buttigieg, himself, claimed to be a practicing Christian, here's all the evidence so far....







                Lemme know if I left anything out.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  So, let's sum things up again.

                  As to Tassman's claim that Buttigieg, himself, claimed to be a practicing Christian, here's all the evidence so far....







                  Lemme know if I left anything out.
                  And as a recap of Tassy's claim and "re-claims", your post here goes through it pretty well (for Carp)

                  http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post636872

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    So this is interesting - and since it's not a continuation of "Is Buttigieg as practicing Christian," I'll respond. I do indeed "run into them," I just don't engage in them anymore. When someone defends a position they have with "the bible says," the best I can do is nod, smile, and perhaps respond, "isn't that nice."

                    This is one of several perspectives that has changed since I came back to TWeb. I actually used to engage in them regularly. It took me a while to realize I was engaging in a pointless exercise and disengage. The same is true of debating specific points of morality with a "bible-based" moralist, though I have to admit that is a very recent awakening on my part. Last few weeks, actually. I had not thought through my own beliefs about morality to fully appreciate the futility of that exercise.
                    I find it incredibly bizarre that one would regularly post in a Christian forum, and yet deign not to engage with Christians who will, undoubtedly, at some point, connect their worldview back to scripture. Every Christian on this forum (that I know of) bases at least some aspect of their moral worldview on the Bible. And probably a great deal of their moral worldview, at that.

                    Also, I find the statement, "the best I can do is nod, smile, and perhaps respond, 'isn't that nice'" disgustingly condescending.

                    Could you (and here I'm talking to my fellow Bible-believing brothers and sisters) ever imagine going to a Muslim forum with the attitude that "I'm not going to engage with Koran-based moralists...?" How utterly ridiculous.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      That is a discussion I am NOT getting into. I don't do "but the bible says" arguments.
                      I hereby prophesy this shall come back to bitest thee.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I hereby prophesy this shall come back to bitest thee.
                        But the bible says, "If a snake bites before it is charmed, the charmer receives no fee. -Ecclesiastes 10:11"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          I find it incredibly bizarre that one would regularly post in a Christian forum, and yet deign not to engage with Christians who will, undoubtedly, at some point, connect their worldview back to scripture. Every Christian on this forum (that I know of) bases at least some aspect of their moral worldview on the Bible. And probably a great deal of their moral worldview, at that.
                          You will note that the vast majority of my posts are in the Civic 101 forum. I returned to TWeb after Trump was elected because I was looking for places where I could engage with conservative thinkers and Trump supporters. It was my way of trying to get "out of my bubble" and listen to the arguments of the other side. Religion/faith had relatively little to do with it. In the process, the futility of engaging with those who hold a position "because the bible says so" became clear, and I generally eschew those discussions, for the reasons cited. I am more interested in the political and general social issues. Once someone defends a position with "because the bible says so," there is usually no point in further engagement. As long as the bible is the basis, the conversation necessarily degenerates into "what does the bible mean" and how to interpret passages and which passages take precedence over which other passages. It's simply not an interest of mine, or a conversation I find useful.

                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Also, I find the statement, "the best I can do is nod, smile, and perhaps respond, 'isn't that nice'" disgustingly condescending.
                          With the level of condescension that flies around here, I would think that would fit right in.

                          But you are right. I was being flip. I apologize. The basic point is, there's nothing much for me to say in response to those kinds of statements.

                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Could you (and here I'm talking to my fellow Bible-believing brothers and sisters) ever imagine going to a Muslim forum with the attitude that "I'm not going to engage with Koran-based moralists...?" How utterly ridiculous.
                          Adrift, you have (I'm sure) seen my exchanges with Seer on my meta-views concerning morality. I find morality to be subjective/relative and rooted in what we value. The person who "values god" and then further presumes "the bible is the inerrant word of god" has a moral framework that is essentially impregnable. So long as "the bible says so," there are very few moral arguments that will convince this person to examine a moral position and approach it differently than they already do. There are basically two possibilities.

                          1) Convince them that "valuing god" is not a very good choice. I rate that "highly unlikely."
                          B) Convince them that the bible is NOT the inerrant word of this god. I rate that "highly unlikely"
                          III) Convince them that they are interpreting the bible incorrectly. That gets everyone caught up in the word dance, and justifying why this passage actually means that. And that discussion is being had on collection of books that has hundreds of translations, for which we have no originals, for which we know relatively little about authorship, written 2000-3500 years ago in a different culture, and many of the books written well after the events they purport to record. I rate that "essentially impossible." We have a U.S. Constitution. By comparison, we have the original documents, we know who wrote them AND have a body of surrounding work that they also wrote, not to mention writings from those that influenced them, it was written about 250 years ago in this culture (albeit it has morphed significantly since then), and it was written in response to current issues of the day. Despite all those advantages, there is STILL wide disagreement on "what it means" and "what was intended." Coming to agreement on the bible is, IMO, an exercise in futility. Even Christians cannot agree on that, or there wouldn't be some 2500 sects (and counting).

                          I find my position to be fairly rational. I understand you disagree.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Actually, the "ongoing" was based on Tassman's false claim that Buttigieg HIMSELF claimed to be a "practicing Christian".

                            So, interesting point ---

                            A) the issue of Tassman's unproven claim Buttigieg himself claimed to be a "practicing Christian" is not a "what the Bible says" issue.
                            I don't recall ever saying it was...

                            This particular threat-within-a-thread originated with a statement you made, to which I responded, "I don't do "what the bible means" discussions."

                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            2) the issue of whether or not Buttigieg actually IS a "practicing Christian" very much involves "what the Bible says".

                            You tended, in this thread, to dabble in both.
                            No. Most of the time, when I jump onto a thread, it's because some basic line of logic seems flawed to me, or because I see people making assumptions they have not supported. I pointed out a few alternative interpretations for Buttigieg's actions that could explain them, and suggested anyone claiming to know the truth has to be "mind reading" or "heart reading" to arrive at that conclusion. At no point did I make a statement about "what the bible means." I DID suggest a passage that might be motivating Buttigieg, but it was a "this is a possibility," not "this is what it means."
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              I don't recall ever saying it was...
                              Neither do I. Not is that what I said.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Then why do you continue to argue about morality with seer in nearly every thread?
                                So, "every" is a bit of hyperbole. And even in the threads where we do, most of the discussion is about the meta issue of the nature of morality - not particular moral issues. As I noted, over the past few weeks (maybe a couple of months) I have become increasingly aware of the futility of engaging on particular moral positions with bible-based moralizers. The last discussion on homosexuality finally opened my eyes a bit.

                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                And if you don't want to argue about "what the bible says" about various topics then you are probably on the wrong forum since that is pretty much what THEOLOGYWEB is about. Sounds more like a convenient way to dismiss your opponent's argument than anything else.
                                See my response to Adrift.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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