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Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    You seem to be laboring under the assumption that anybody who is not in favor of this or that societal change is not any different than a white supremacist.
    No - not anybody. But prejudice and bigotry are what they are. That is true whether it is towards the black person, the Jew, or a member of the LGBTQ community. It is true whether the justification for the prejudice is economic, social, or religious. And I will always speak out against such philosophies.

    Those expressing them will pretty much always feel they are being "singled out." They are being "unjustly treated." That is pretty much always the case when a philosophy has held sway for a long time, and begins to be broken down. Those previously in power feel that power slipping away, and are typically outraged and feel deprived - targeted - abused - etc.

    That they feel that way doesn't mean it is true. It just means their view is no longer being tolerated.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      No - not anybody. But prejudice and bigotry are what they are. That is true whether it is towards the black person, the Jew, or a member of the LGBTQ community. It is true whether the justification for the prejudice is economic, social, or religious. And I will always speak out against such philosophies.

      Those expressing them will pretty much always feel they are being "singled out." They are being "unjustly treated." That is pretty much always the case when a philosophy has held sway for a long time, and begins to be broken down. Those previously in power feel that power slipping away, and are typically outraged and feel deprived - targeted - abused - etc.

      That they feel that way doesn't mean it is true. It just means their view is no longer being tolerated.
      So if people disagree with your values they are bigots because they should be more tolerant of your values, but it is OK for you to be intolerant of them and their values and you are not a bigot?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito
        True, that. I don't like being accosted and accused by street corner preachers either. It doesn't matter a whole lot who uses the tactics - the tactics remain wrong. (IMO - of course).
        Tab - I don't make it a practice to stand on street corners on this issue. But when it comes up - I address it - without apology and without hesitation.

        The discussion here has circled around homosexuality, likely because of the subject of the thread. I think it would be odd not to have people like me take a stand against the "anti-LGBTQ" sentiments commonly expressed here.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          I would never adopt a "live and let live" attitude to a person expressing white supremacy as a philosophy. Why would I do it for someone denigrating the LGBTQ community?
          Is that all it is? Really? Most of what I have seen here, and elsewhere, has been more a matter of objection to being treated as less than human for not trumpeting the virtues of the LGBT lifestyle(s).
          Case in point - the forced closure of "White" wedding magazine - for not including LGBT couples in its content. Never said a word about LGBT issues one way or the other. The magazine owners and staff were threatened, and advertisers along with them because the owners (responding to baiting on Facebook) said they had no intention of including LGBT couples in the magazine.
          Another case in point: Woman who lost custody of her son because she was forcing him to live as a girl - despite his objections and declared desire to live as a boy.

          Is someone going to claim that the rabid anti-LGBT groups are worse than these? On what grounds?

          And of course, there is the point just mentioned by Sparko - Are you going to claim moral superiority and support of inclusiveness whilst levelling gratuitous insults at people for their religious beliefs?
          Last edited by tabibito; 05-13-2019, 01:39 PM.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            So if people disagree with your values they are bigots because they should be more tolerant of your values, but it is OK for you to be intolerant of them and their values and you are not a bigot?
            I will always be "intolerant" of views that express bigoted and discriminatory positions, Sparko - without any apology for it. This old chestnut of "you're a bigot because you call us bigots" and "your discriminating because you tell us we're discriminating" is a long-used tactic by those actually expressing such discriminatory views. You can keep using it if you wish. So long as people express, and seek to promulgate, discriminatory views and practices - I (and others like me) will call them on it. If that makes you feel "discriminated against," so be it. Stop taking a position against a class of people that denigrates and diminishes them, and you won't have to face the accusation.

            Or not...
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              I will always be "intolerant" of views that express bigoted and discriminatory positions, Sparko - without any apology for it. This old chestnut of "you're a bigot because you call us bigots" and "your discriminating because you tell us we're discriminating" is a long-used tactic by those actually expressing such discriminatory views. You can keep using it if you wish. So long as people express, and seek to promulgate, discriminatory views and practices - I (and others like me) will call them on it. If that makes you feel "discriminated against," so be it. Stop taking a position against a class of people that denigrates and diminishes them, and you won't have to face the accusation.

              Or not...
              So that's a yes then? You are a hypocrite?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Is that all it is? Really? Most of what I have seen here, and elsewhere, has been more a matter of objection to being treated as less than human for not trumpeting the virtues of the LGBT lifestyle(s).
                I don't find anything "virtuous" about the LGBTQ lifestyle, anymore than I find anything "virtuous" about being heterosexual or white or blonde. I don't believe I have said anything to that effect.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Case in point - the forced closure of "White" wedding magazine - for not including LGBT couples in its content. Never said a word about LGBT issues one way or the other. The magazine owners and staff were threatened, and advertisers along with them because the owners (responding to baiting on Facebook) said they had no intention of including LGBT couples in the magazine.
                I'm not familiar with this event. IMO, what someone decides to publish in a magazine is the decision of its editor. Those of us who believe that such an exclusion smacks of prejudice/bigotry should vote with our feet and not buy the magazine, encourage advertisers not to advertise in the magazine, etc. That is how the market works. If there are enough people who share the views, and enough advertisers who share the views, then the magazine will succeed. If not...

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Another case in point: Woman who lost custody of her son because she was forcing him to live as a girl - despite his objections and declared desire to live as a boy.
                That sounds like a parent that needs to get some counseling.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Is someone going to claim that the rabid anti-LGBT groups are worse than these? On what grounds?
                Worse? I have no idea. I'm not into those kinds of comparatives because they lack a metric by which to do the comparison. But I also am not going to defend the anti-LGBTQ community because some of the people fighting for LGBTQ rights and freedoms take it too far. Two wrongs, as they say, don't make a right. Both things need to stop.
                Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-13-2019, 01:46 PM.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  And of course, there is the point just mentioned by Sparko - Are you going to claim moral superiority and support of inclusiveness whilst levelling gratuitous insults at people for their religious beliefs?
                  Where, exactly, did I insult someone for their religious beliefs?
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    So that's a yes then? You are a hypocrite?
                    No, I am not a hypocrite. I am perfectly consistent in my views, AFAICT.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      It doesn't bother me at all to take a stand against prejudice and bigotry and insist my government do so as well. I didn't defend the white supremacist when they objected that their kids were "forced" to be with those nasty black children, and didn't object when the government instituted laws to protect black people from discrimination. I'm not going to object when the government takes the same approach to the LGBTQ community.

                      I am sorry, for you, Seer, that you have elected to adopt the stance you have adopted. But, as you note, there is little I can do about it until you decide to root your morality in something other than an ancient collection of books. Until then - you will follow them blindly and they will take you to places that I (and society, increasingly) no longer find acceptable. I'm not going to stay silent because it offends you. I would not do that for the white supremacist or antisemite, and I certainly won't do it for someone taking a stance against the LGBTQ community.
                      Yet you will and would use the government to force LGBT sex ed on kids and parents who don't want it and force the religious to violate their moral principles. That is hypocritical, you are neither inclusive nor accepting - except towards your pet groups.

                      Although our Constitution contains many bigoted components, history has followed an arc towards eliminating those components, and rejecting them as a matter of public policy. I endorse that arc - and support it continuing in that direction.
                      So you find the free exercise of religion bigoted?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Where, exactly, did I insult someone for their religious beliefs?
                        You mean like comparing us to the Klan?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Yet you will and would use the government to force LGBT sex ed on kids and parents who don't want it and force the religious to violate their moral principles.
                          You cannot hide prejudice and discrimination behind "moral principals," Seer. So yes, if sex education is to be taught in schools, it should include coverage of all sexual orientations without prejudice or discrimination. If you don't like it, then you can a) vote for people that will advocate for your discriminatory views - and I will fight tooth and nail against it, or b) start your own school or send your child to a private school. But our public money should not be used to promote a discriminatory POV.

                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          That is hypocritical, you are neither inclusive nor accepting - except towards your pet groups.
                          No - it's not. Repeating it won't make it so. It is perfectly consistent: no discriminatory or prejudicial philosophy should be taught or promoted in our schools, even those attempting to hide under the cover of "religion" and "morality."

                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          So you find the free exercise of religion bigoted?
                          No - I find the exercise of religion protected - but every exercise of religion has limits. If you tell me that your religious views are that a child should be sacrificed every Sunday at your community celebration, then your "religious freedom" will be constrained. If you tell me that your religious views stipulate that "ownership" is a sin and that gives you the right to take anything from anyone, then your religious views will be constrained. If you tell me that your religious views are that "the LGBTQ community is 'sinful' and must be denied basic rights available to others because of that," then your religious views should be (finally!) constrained.

                          If you want to practice such views - practice them within your churches and among your membership. If you bring them out into the marketplace and civil theater - we will fight against the views and their encoding in our laws and practices.

                          The objection, Seer, is that people who think like you have been the dominant power in the U.S. from the dawn of the republic. Now that power is shifting and those who hold these views suddenly find themselves constrained and marginalized. It's not a happy place to be. To that I say, "good - it's about time these views are marginalized in our society." I will continue to advocate for their elimination in our laws, schools, and the public marketplace in general. What you do in your churches and private homes is your business.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            You mean like comparing us to the Klan?
                            You are not like the Klan because you are Christian, Seer. You are like the Klan in one and only one way: you choose to advocate for a position (and practices) that denigrate and diminish a group of people. For the Klan - it was black people and Jews. For you (and those who think like you), it is the LGBTQ community.

                            Note that not all Christians are taking this position. Many have moved to an open, accepting, welcoming perspective. You, and those who think like you, continue to defend these views as "religious." You can do so if you wish. The rest of us will not accept them, and will stand against these views being expressed in our laws and our civil practices. We cannot stop you from saying or posting such things. We can simply point to them when you do and decry them for the discriminatory thing they are.

                            And yes - that will leave you feeling "discriminated" against. You are not being discriminated against because you are a man, or white, or a Christian. I am not denying you access to public services, legal standing, or anything else. All that is happening is that your views are being pointed out as unacceptable - as hateful. You're going to have to deal with it until such time as your views change.
                            Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-13-2019, 02:27 PM.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              No, I am not a hypocrite. I am perfectly consistent in my views, AFAICT.
                              Then you are a blind hypocrite.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Then you are a blind hypocrite.
                                Any response would be pointless, since I'm apparently blind...

                                So...your opinion is duly noted.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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