Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

[Mountain Man]

On a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT note (kinda)....

As usual, Steve Taylor has a great satirical take on this sort of thing...

A politician next door
Swore he'd set the Washington arena on fire
Thinks he'll gladiate them
But they're gonna make him a liar

Well he's a good ol' boy
Who was born and raised
In the buckle of the Bible Belt
But remember when you step
Into your voting booth
He'll never lie
He'll just embellish the truth

Promises were made to be broken, right?
You've gotta play the game to win
When you need supporting
Tell them that you're born again
Whatever happened to sin?

The Press Conference

It's a personal thing, and I find it odd
You would question my believing in a personal God
I'm devout, I'm sincere, ask my mother if you doubt it
I'm religious, but I'd rather not get radical about it

The old-time believers had timidity and grace
But this new generation doesn't know its place
You're entitled to believe, but the latest Gallup Poll
Says you mustn't interfere--that's the government's role

'Cause when you throw your hat in the bullring
Before you know know know it's a personal thing
And when he comes to the day of reckoning
He's gonna tell 'em, "uh, uh, uh, it's a personal thing"

The Nomination Speech

It's a personal thing, and I boldly state
That my views on morality will have to wait
'Til my personal life's out of the public eye
And the limitations statue can protect my alibi

I'm devout, I'm sincere, and I'm proud to say
That it's had exactly no effect on who I am today
I believe for the benefit of all mankind
In the total separation of church and mind

'Cause when you throw your hat in the bullring
Before you know know know it's a personal thing
And when he comes to the day of reckoning
He's gonna tell 'em, "uh, uh, uh, it's a personal thing"

The Victory Night

It's a personal thing, and I plainly speak
(From the same code of ethics that I held last week)
As I promised if elected this election day
With the help of God almighty, I'll do it my way

'Cause when you throw your hat in the bullring
Before you know know know it's a personal thing
And when he comes to the day of reckoning
He's gonna say, "back off, buddy, it's a personal thing"

[One Bad Pig]

As usual, Steve Taylor has a great satirical take on this sort of thing...

A politician next door
Swore he'd set the Washington arena on fire
Thinks he'll gladiate them
But they're gonna make him a liar

Well he's a good ol' boy
Who was born and raised
In the buckle of the Bible Belt
But remember when you step
Into your voting booth
He'll never lie
He'll just embellish the truth

Promises were made to be broken, right?
You've gotta play the game to win
When you need supporting
Tell them that you're born again
Whatever happened to sin?

Perhaps even more pertinent to this thread is the start of that song:

A Christian counselor wrote, quote
"It's the only human choice ahead
If you can't support it
Why don't you abort it instead?"
You say you pray to the sky
Why? when you're afraid to take a stand down here
'Cause while the holy talk reads like a bad ad-lib
Silence screams you were robbing the crib
Say it ain't none of my business, huh?
A woman's got a right to choose
Now a grave-digger
Next you pull the trigger
What then?
Whatever happened to sin?

I heard the Reverend say
"Gay is probably normal in the Good Lord's sight
What's to be debated?
Jesus never stated what's right"
I'm no theology nut, but
The Reverend may be a little confused
For if the Lord don't care
And he chooses to ignore-ah
Tell it to the people
Of Sodom and Gomorrah (woah)

[oxmixmudd]

I am always stubborn when seeking the truth, Jim.

What you have attempted to show is that Buttigieg is in attendance at a special event. Most Churches across our Nation have such "Christians".

So, my question for you --- why is it so necessary for you to believe that Buttigieg is a "practicing Christian"?

Why is it so necessary to you to try to prove he is not?

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

Yes it was a "technicality" but we did it because...

1. We had the time to waste - this is theologyweb after all.
2. We wanted to see how long Tassman would drag this on without admitting he made something up.


And again, attending church is not all there is to being a "practicing Christian" - a practicing Christian would be someone who lives their life trying as best they can to follow Christ and the bible. He pretty much spits on that by being married to another man and ignoring what the bible says about homosexual behavior.

You know - he brings his faith into the public debate, even though he knows most evangelicals - most Christians really - will slam him over it. Even though he could take (and is taking) a lot of heat for it. That points to something more than the Christmas/Easter if they feel good sort of Christian faith. I have no reason to doubt he is sincere.

Most gay/lesbian people that are practicing Christians and that carry that into marriage and some sort of Christian faith expression are not 'spitting' on the Bible. They definitely read scripture differently than you or I do to arrive at the conclusion it is ok - but they are sincerely trying to practice Christian faith in the midst of what they feel is something they have no control over. And the point is not whether or not you or I could embrace their understanding of Christian faith, the questions here is whether or not HE sees himself as a practicing Christian and whether or not he is practicing his faith sincerely. And the reality is, as a practical matter, being a gay person that tries to live out Christian faith is a very, very uncomfortable and difficult position. That person is ostracized by almost everyone - they don't fit into typical LBG circles, and they don't fit into most Christian circles either. So he has no real reason to be public about it unless it is for him a deeply held and real faith position.


Jim

ETA: I have stayed away from the issue of his position on abortion - I think the two elements have to be addressed independently from each other.

[Sparko]

You know - he brings his faith into the public debate, even though he knows most evangelicals - most Christians really - will slam him over it. Even though he could take (and is taking) a lot of heat for it. That points to something more than the Christmas/Easter if they feel good sort of Christian faith. I have no reason to doubt he is sincere.

Most gay/lesbian people that are practicing Christians and that carry that into marriage and some sort of Christian faith expression are not 'spitting' on the Bible. They definitely read scripture differently than you or I do to arrive at the conclusion it is ok - but they are sincerely trying to practice Christian faith in the midst of what they feel is something they have no control over. And the point is not whether or not you or I could embrace their understanding of Christian faith, the questions here is whether or not HE sees himself as a practicing Christian and whether or not he is practicing his faith sincerely. And the reality is, as a practical matter, being a gay person that tries to live out Christian faith is a very, very uncomfortable and difficult position. That person is ostracized by almost everyone - they don't fit into typical LBG circles, and they don't fit into most Christian circles either. So he has no real reason to be public about it unless it is for him a deeply held and real faith position.

Jim

You seem determined to ignore what we have said and pretend we have been saying Buttigieg is not a Christian. I don't know if he is truly a practicing Christian or not. I can't read his heart.

Have at your strawman, Jim. I hope it keeps you warm.

[oxmixmudd]

You seem determined to ignore what we have said and pretend we have been saying Buttigieg is not a Christian. I don't know if he is truly a practicing Christian or not. I can't read his heart.

Have at your strawman, Jim. I hope it keeps you warm.

Always have to make it an ad hominem - why?

I addressed the issue of whether he has claimed it himself that is your argument with Tassman. By referencing HIS faith and HIS faith tradition, by being a member of and attending a local church, he is claiming to be a practicing Christian. If you want to pretend he must have been quoted by a major news outlet saying the literal words "I am a practicing Christian" to have claimed to be one, then you are being silly. First, people say those words all the time and it means nothing. Second, the entire reason for demanding the claim have been made so explicitly is some sort of bizarre way to say he's lying about it. And third, as I've already said, his constant references to his own faith and application of it in his public life and speaking says more than saying those 5 words ever could in terms of affirming his faith is real and sincere.




Jim

[rogue06]

Why is it so necessary to you to try to prove he is not?

Jim

You seem to have it completely backwards here. What everyone has been asking for is evidence that Buttigieg himself has ever said that he is a Christian. That has been what is missing. Nobody, AFAICT, has tried to prove he isn't, but rather want to hear it from the horse's mouth. But all we've gotten to date is a bunch of stuff from the other end.

[oxmixmudd]

You seem to have it completely backwards here. What everyone has been asking for is evidence that Buttigieg himself has ever said that he is a Christian. That has been what is missing. Nobody, AFAICT, has tried to prove he isn't, but rather want to hear it from the horse's mouth. But all we've gotten to date is a bunch of stuff from the other end.

How can referring to HIS faith and HIS church (which is Episcopal) NOT be claiming he is a Christian? That is the direct implication UNLESS he makes a point of saying otherwise. to be a Christian in the Episcopal church you must have been baptised, you must take communion etc.

More importantly, why did it ever even become necessary to Tassman to make the claim he proclaimed himself Christian? And barring an exact quote of those 5 words, why are you so unwilling to accept what he has said as the equivalent of such a claim? Are you seriously telling me that you've wasted 172 pages over whether or not you can find buttigieg saying those exact words in a news quote somewhere?

Jim

[Sparko]

Always have to make it an ad hominem - why?

It's not an ad hominem. You ARE ignoring what we have told you about Tassman's claim and instead claiming we have been saying Buttigieg isn't a practicing Christian. That is a straw man argument. You jumped in after 170 pages and are admonishing us about something we haven't even done. That seems a bit sanctimonious to me, Jim. At least READ the thread first.

By referencing HIS faith and HIS faith tradition, by being a member of and attending a local church, he is claiming to be a practicing Christian.

Did he actually claim to be a practicing Christian? Or even say "I am a Christian" anywhere that you can find?

He might well believe he is. But he never SAID IT IN ANY PUBLIC NEWS ARTICLE. Which is what Tassman claimed he did. Which he cannot show. Which YOU cannot show.

Whether he is or not is beside the point of Tassman making up facts without a source.

[rogue06]

How can referring to HIS faith and HIS church (which is Episcopal) NOT be claiming he is a Christian? That is the direct implication UNLESS he makes a point of saying otherwise. to be a Christian in the Episcopal church you must have been baptised, you must take communion etc.

More importantly, why did it ever even become necessary to Tassman to make the claim he proclaimed himself Christian? And barring an exact quote of those 5 words, why are you so unwilling to accept what he has said as the equivalent of such a claim? Are you seriously telling me that you've wasted 172 pages over whether or not you can find buttigieg saying those exact words in a news quote somewhere?

Jim

Take a look at exactly what he has said about "HIS faith and HIS church."

[Cow Poke]

Why is it so necessary to you to try to prove he is not?

Jim

I'm going to pretend you're not just being a jackass with the goofy "yuk yuk" emoji.....

A) I'm not "proving that he's not", I'm asking for proof that he is. So, it's rather dishonest of you to suggest that I'm trying to "prove" he's not. I cannot prove a negative - you should know that.
2) I'm tired of people wrapping themselves in cheap grace to further their own ambitions, and that's exactly what Buttigieg's own brother-in-law says he's doing, and what the evidence - SO FAR - seems to suggest.
C) It's fascinating to me that anti-Christian bigots like Tassman and JimL are working so hard (and now with your help) to hold Buttigieg up as a "practicing Christian", like that's what REAL Christianity is - ignoring the Bible concerning homosexuality, and advancing the agenda of the "kill unborn babies at any stage without restriction".

Again, I ask --- why is it so important to you that Buttigieg be recognized as a "practicing Christian"?

[Cow Poke]

You seem determined to ignore what we have said and pretend we have been saying Buttigieg is not a Christian. I don't know if he is truly a practicing Christian or not. I can't read his heart.

Have at your strawman, Jim. I hope it keeps you warm.

EGGzackly

I think OX doesn't really have a clue what this whole issue is all about - but he gets to fight conservatives, even though that puts him in league with the anti-Christian bigots.

[Cow Poke]

More importantly, why did it ever even become necessary to Tassman to make the claim he proclaimed himself Christian? ...

Because Tassman is an anti-Christian bigot, and the only "REAL" Christian to him is one like Buttigieg -- who embraces homosexuality as a lifestyle contrary to God's word, and is an advocate for the murder of unborn children without limits.

Congratulations, Jim -- you're in GREAT company.

[oxmixmudd]

I'm going to pretend you're not just being a jackass with the goofy "yuk yuk" emoji.....

A) I'm not "proving that he's not", I'm asking for proof that he is. So, it's rather dishonest of you to suggest that I'm trying to "prove" he's not. I cannot prove a negative - you should know that.
2) I'm tired of people wrapping themselves in cheap grace to further their own ambitions, and that's exactly what Buttigieg's own brother-in-law says he's doing, and what the evidence - SO FAR - seems to suggest.
C) It's fascinating to me that anti-Christian bigots like Tassman and JimL are working so hard (and now with your help) to hold Buttigieg up as a "practicing Christian", like that's what REAL Christianity is - ignoring the Bible concerning homosexuality, and advancing the agenda of the "kill unborn babies at any stage without restriction".

Again, I ask --- why is it so important to you that Buttigieg be recognized as a "practicing Christian"?

It isn't important to me that he be recognized as a practicing Christian per se. But it does seem to me this entire line of debate about whether he claims to be a Christian is a petty way to try to discredit him, and I am against lying about people as a means of keeping their views from being heard. It don't see anything to indicate he is not sincere on this issue.

Now if he's for late term abortions then he'd have fight with me if he were debating me.

But at the same time, there are in fact gay people in the episcopal church that practice their faith just as completely as straight members, and there is no reason to call THAT specific aspect of who he is into question just because you don't agree with him on other things.



Jim

[oxmixmudd]

Because Tassman is an anti-Christian bigot, and the only "REAL" Christian to him is one like Buttigieg -- who embraces homosexuality as a lifestyle contrary to God's word, and is an advocate for the murder of unborn children without limits.

Congratulations, Jim -- you're in GREAT company.

Then you sure went on the wrong tack if that is the point. Because I think the fact he sincerely believes himself to be a practicing Christian is self-evident.

And I don't mind being in the 'wrong' company if the point they are making is right. I'll argue what I believe is right regardless. In fact, that is something that is very, very wrong these days. Too many people going along with what is wrong because that's the direction the crowd they normally hang with is headed.


Jim